MS Office Forum / Excel / New Users / November 2007
Unhappy 2007 vs. 2003 camper?
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Wild Bill - 02 Oct 2007 08:20 GMT I haven't taken the plunge myself so am asking here. I just fell onto a site that compares 2007 vs. 2003 quite brutally. It sure goes further than the surprisingly open (to me) article "Deprecated features for Excel 2007" http://blogs.msdn.com/excel/archive/2006/08/24/718786.aspx .
Rather than list all of his chart I'll show the link. Do you believe it (below) is valid? It seems the author is quite biased against 2007, but is trying as least a little bit to be fair. Obviously he omits multitudes of 2007 improvements. Yet are his "complaints" accurate? http://www.add-ins.com/Excel%202003%20versus%202007.htm
Bob Phillips - 02 Oct 2007 09:33 GMT Many of his comments are accurate, but many are not actually argued. For instance ... Frequent user group reports of crashes and not being able to save files ... is hardly a reasoned argument.
I think it would be hard to argue that charting is seriously flawed in 2007, and that you either love the ribbon or you hate it, but there are serious changes in the product that have to be objectively analysed.
The author dismisses a million rows, but clearly this has been a major user request for many years now. It is not my idea of a major requirement, but it clearly is for others. He also dismisses 16K columns, but most people that I know have wanted more than 256 columns; not every day for every spreadsheet, but certainly more. 16K may be more than we envisaged, but at least it is more.
Table handling is changed big-time in 2007, and it is a going in the right direction.
Conditional formatting is taken to a new level in 2007.
There are formula changes, SUMIFS, COUNTIFS, AVERAGEIF, IFERROR, etc. Whilst I think SUMIFS, COUNTIFS is no big deal personally, they are useful, but I like AVERAGEIF and IFERROR. And they have integrated ATP into Excel, which is great.
Pivot tables have had a major re-vamp (not before time).
They have included a names manager (although it is nowhere near as good as Jan Karel Pieterse's NameManager addin). Need a DV manager though IMO.
Then there are many little things, such as undo after save, improved filtering, formula autocomplete, resizable formula bars (I love that one), and so on.
Of course there are downsides besides those mentioned above. Macro handling is not great but not unworkable, F4 has been severely beaten up which is a real bummer IMO, no tear-off toolbars, and so on again.
Overall, it is a major product change. The critical thing IMO is what they do in the next release, what they agree is broken and therefore fix, what they add, etc. In the meantime, you have to evaluate it as such, identify what you may need that has been lost or functionally changed, what new functions that you can use, and from this you determine if you want to upgrade. But many people buying Excel for the first time will get Excel 2007 de facto, so there will be a take-up regardless.
Personally, I would like to have seen an Excel release where they made the functional changes first (tables, CF, pivots, etc.) in a stable version, then did the strategy changes (ribbon, rows, etc.) in a further release. This would have been a smoother transition and allowed time to bed the functional changes and gives us a vastly improved non-ribbon version before being asked to move on. But I can understand MS feeling that Excel needed a headline grabbing change, and thus they did it all in one.
 Signature HTH
Bob
(there's no email, no snail mail, but somewhere should be gmail in my addy)
>I haven't taken the plunge myself so am asking here. I just fell onto a > site that compares 2007 vs. 2003 quite brutally. It sure goes further [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > multitudes of 2007 improvements. Yet are his "complaints" accurate? > http://www.add-ins.com/Excel%202003%20versus%202007.htm Jim Rech - 02 Oct 2007 12:35 GMT A big issue to me is the performanace degradation. Virtually every action, calc, macro will be a lot slower, sometimes unusably so based on reports we're seen here. I don't have any huge slow calcing workbooks to test the site's claim of being 20x slower though. I have found that a macro that took 6 minutes to run in Excel 2003 took 13 minutes in 2007.
"In Excel 2007, if you password protect your workbooks and they contain macros, there is no way to enable macros."
Not "no way". There is a registry entry that turns this security feature off.
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Office\12.0\Excel\Security\ExcelBypassEncryptedMacroScan
set to 1.
 Signature Jim
|I haven't taken the plunge myself so am asking here. I just fell onto a | site that compares 2007 vs. 2003 quite brutally. It sure goes further [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] | multitudes of 2007 improvements. Yet are his "complaints" accurate? | http://www.add-ins.com/Excel%202003%20versus%202007.htm Wondering - 02 Oct 2007 15:53 GMT The article states: Some will love the 2007 interface, some will hate it. Figure one to two weeks to relearn Excel basics. It most likely will take over a year before you match your past productivity.
What utter rubbish!! Anyone with reasonable intelligence can learn the new, very intuitive, interface in less than a morning and be very proficient by the end of the day. The ribbon is so much easier to use than the old drill down menus. If you like using the keyboard shortcuts, they're all right there on the ribbon. Just press the Alt key. The new ribbon makes it so much easier to find things compared to the old menus. I'm able to work more quickly with the ribbon as well and I like not having to dig down through menus to get to the things I want to use.
>I haven't taken the plunge myself so am asking here. I just fell onto a > site that compares 2007 vs. 2003 quite brutally. It sure goes further [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > multitudes of 2007 improvements. Yet are his "complaints" accurate? > http://www.add-ins.com/Excel%202003%20versus%202007.htm Peo Sjoblom - 02 Oct 2007 16:05 GMT > The article states: > Some will love the 2007 interface, some will hate it. Figure one to two [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > menus. I'm able to work more quickly with the ribbon as well and I like > not having to dig down through menus to get to the things I want to use. Not if you are an advanced user. It takes much longer than a morning to get up to past productivity. There are many things that are much more hidden in the new interface. Only time will tell if this will work. There is no way I would recommend a company to switch to 2007 at this stage.
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Peo Sjoblom
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Regards,
Peo Sjoblom
Wondering - 02 Oct 2007 16:36 GMT I disagree. It's so much easier and faster to get to things with the ribbon. Give me examples of how menus are easier than the ribbon.
>> The article states: >> Some will love the 2007 interface, some will hate it. Figure one to two [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > time will tell if this will work. There is no way I would recommend a > company to switch to 2007 at this stage. Molly - 21 Oct 2007 18:50 GMT Menus were MUCH better than these novice ribbons in MANY ways if you are an advanced user. I can see how ribbons might be helpful if you are a new user, but for advanced users who use numerous advanced functions at the single click of an icon, ribbons are a real step backwards and waste precious time/productivity. Even with the "custom" options for ribbons and the tiny custom toolbar you can create, it doesn't remotely compare to the speed of the old toolbars. Additionally, you can fit WAY MORE commands on the former icon toolbars than you can on ribbons, which is paramount to advanced users. The ribbons are way too elementary for the advanced user.
Molly
> I disagree. It's so much easier and faster to get to things with the ribbon. > Give me examples of how menus are easier than the ribbon. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > time will tell if this will work. There is no way I would recommend a > > company to switch to 2007 at this stage. Bob Phillips - 02 Oct 2007 17:52 GMT IMO an experienced Excel user will NEVER get to past productivity. With having to do three clicks where one or two worked previously, the crippled F4 functionality, and no tear-off toolbars, productivity is seriously impaired.
 Signature HTH
Bob
(there's no email, no snail mail, but somewhere should be gmail in my addy)
>> The article states: >> Some will love the 2007 interface, some will hate it. Figure one to two [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > time will tell if this will work. There is no way I would recommend a > company to switch to 2007 at this stage. Wondering - 02 Oct 2007 18:39 GMT I understand you can augment the ribbon with whatever you want by code. I'm sure some add-ins will come along to made that sreamlined. F4 crippled? How so?
> IMO an experienced Excel user will NEVER get to past productivity. With > having to do three clicks where one or two worked previously, the crippled [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> Only time will tell if this will work. There is no way I would recommend >> a company to switch to 2007 at this stage. Bob Phillips - 02 Oct 2007 23:14 GMT There already are addins that make the ribbon look like classic,
http://www.addintools.com/english/menuexcel
http://wwwtoolbartoggle.com
F4 just doesn't repeat the last action in many cases where it did previously in 2003. Sort for instance, and loads more.
 Signature HTH
Bob
(there's no email, no snail mail, but somewhere should be gmail in my addy)
>I understand you can augment the ribbon with whatever you want by code. I'm >sure some add-ins will come along to made that sreamlined. F4 crippled? How [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >>> Only time will tell if this will work. There is no way I would recommend >>> a company to switch to 2007 at this stage. sowa2 - 06 Nov 2007 23:35 GMT Why should we need an add-in? Microsoft should simply have given us the option to go back to classic toolbars. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Sick and tired of Microsoft forcing things on us, especially when the new stuff (designed for newbies and idiots) takes away options for advanced users.
> There already are addins that make the ribbon look like classic, > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > >>> Only time will tell if this will work. There is no way I would recommend > >>> a company to switch to 2007 at this stage. Molly - 21 Oct 2007 18:42 GMT I'm with you, Peo! I wouldn't recommend 2007 for company upgrades either. In my opinion, 2007 might be useful for a brand new user who does not need lots of advanced functions, but it is a real step backwards for advanced users.
Molly
> > The article states: > > Some will love the 2007 interface, some will hate it. Figure one to two [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > time will tell if this will work. There is no way I would recommend a > company to switch to 2007 at this stage. Wild Bill - 03 Oct 2007 05:08 GMT Regarding http://www.add-ins.com/Excel%202003%20versus%202007.htm and your astute discussion:
While that author has his "take" on rows and columns, there's no question about what 2007 does there. Stability and whether anything will run as fast (dual processor benefit?) may or may not be definitely answered in time. And clearly there will be debate over the ribbon with fans and detractors, but we already have a hard answer on that one; MS decided it was better, and that the users would like it better. (Moreover, some may contend that the broad-market-appeal - i.e. new novice purchaser blood - trumped any MVP objections anyway in MS's interface decision.) At any rate, it is what it is.
Obviously speed, stability and look and feel are crucial aspects. Hearing your observations on those parts is valuable so thanks. Yet I'd like to hear more about some of those specific feature "beefs." Is he right about macros breaking, uncustomizable toolbars/ribbons except for the quick access one, no customizable macro buttons (huh?), removed charting features? Everyone (including novices, haha) really needs to edit the registry to run macros on passworded workbooks?
It's worth noting again that the guy did brazenly omit positives, but we have hundreds of articles detailing those. I just didn't hear his specific claims mentioned on the depecated list, and wonder if he is simply off the mark or not.
ilia - 04 Oct 2007 01:10 GMT I list my general comments in response to his below. In general, here are the major improvements in my opinion: * Tables vs lists * Filters for tables and PivotTables * Data connections
I did notice some problems with charts, of the sort where I couldn't find the feature I'm looking for and the Chart Wizard is well-hidden in this version. I also don't like chart/object property window change, but it's probably a matter of getting used to it. Over time, I often found anything that initially looks different can still be done the old way, or in a similar fashion.
Back to the list:
Number of rows/columns His comment: Very few users need large numbers of rows/columns. My comment: Try Excel 2003 for importing a 1500+ page annual expense budget (printed by transaction line)
Calculate speed His comment: VERY SLOW My comment: I haven't noticed a difference, but I haven't done extensive testing either
Chart Refresh His comment: Extrmely slow. Almost like watching grass grow. My comment: Have not noticed this problem
Opening and closing files His comment: Slow My comment: .xlsb format restores previous speed, if really needed
Conditional Formatting His comment: Many tests are allowed My comment: Many more improvements than just number of conditions
Customizing toolbars His comment: Limited customization My comment: I have a customized ribbon tab (a little XML skill helps) that has all the features I use regularly.
Patterns in formatting charts and cells His comment: Patterns are no longer available for selection My comment: Patterns are available for cells
Interface His comment: Ribbons with buttons and text drop downs My comment: I was an Excel 2003 power user, and had very few problems with the ribbons
Macro recording His comment: Poor My comment: I don't use this
Macros and workbook protection His comment: Major problems My comment: Just discovered this. I think it's due to the sharing bit.
Customizing Macro buttons His comment: Feature removed My comment: Feature there, but for some reason disabled. Customized ribbon elements can be easily linked to macros - again, with some XML knowledge or a 3rd-party plugin.
Stability His comment: Frequent user group reports of crashes and not being able to save files My comment: Few problems here.
File opening time His comment: Many reports of problems of files not opening or very slow to open My comment: Not always a problem. I've seen it on a few occasions, but not sure what causes it.
> Regardinghttp://www.add-ins.com/Excel%202003%20versus%202007.htmand > your astute discussion: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > specific claims mentioned on the depecated list, and wonder if he is > simply off the mark or not. myemail.an@googlemail.com - 14 Nov 2007 13:22 GMT My 2 cents:
> Number of rows/columns > His comment: Very few users need large numbers of rows/columns. Depends on the type of users. The point is, even though Excel 2007 theoretically can work with 1 million rows, that's not what spreadhseets are meant for. You should use a database for that: much faster and more reliable.
> Calculate speed > His comment: VERY SLOW > My comment: I haven't noticed a difference, but I haven't done > extensive testing either I have. I have done several tests and Excel 2007 is sooo slower. Macros that run in 30 seconds in Excel 2003 (processing a number of files in a folder) take 2 minutes in Excel 2007. And the computer running 2007 is much faster than that running 2003!
> Conditional Formatting > His comment: Many tests are allowed > My comment: Many more improvements than just number of conditions One of the few interesting improvements
> Customizing toolbars > His comment: Limited customization > My comment: I have a customized ribbon tab (a little XML skill helps) > that has all the features I use regularly. I find it very hard to customize the ribbon. For instance, I added two buttons, one for pasting values and one for selecting visible cells, but I found no way to customize the icons; as of now, they both have the same icons, which is clearly annoying. Maybe there is a way, but if there is, it is not well documented.
> Macro recording > His comment: Poor > My comment: I don't use this Much poorer than 2003. Some operations on charts cannot be recorded.
VBA has slightly changed and some functionalities were dropped (application.filesearch, for instance). What pisses me off is that this is not documented anywhere! It's unacceptable. Microsoft should have clearly specified what was removed, why, and what can be used as an alternative. But why bother if you're a monopolist and users will keep buying your products anyway, no matter how crappy?
> Stability > His comment: Frequent user group reports of crashes and not being able > to save files > My comment: Few problems here. HUGE problems here. I am fighting with the IT department of my company to have my PC downgraded to 2003, as it's faster and more stable.
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