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MS Office Forum / Excel / New Users / October 2007

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25th percentile error

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Ank the Tank - 03 Oct 2007 16:47 GMT
I don't know if anyone has run into this problem yet or not, but I
took a list with a bunch of 0, and Excel did not calculate the 25th
percentile correctly. Here is the list of numbers, and the result that
excel gave, along with what Google Spreadsheet says:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pAx-2J0plOyvU7reZfyFGNA

Any ideas?
Bernie Deitrick - 03 Oct 2007 17:25 GMT
Ank,

This is part of the well-known deficiencies in Excel's statistical abilities, er, non-abilities.

For example, see:

http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~nhunt/pottel.pdf

HTH,
Bernie
MS Excel MVP

>I don't know if anyone has run into this problem yet or not, but I
> took a list with a bunch of 0, and Excel did not calculate the 25th
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Any ideas?
Ank the Tank - 03 Oct 2007 18:17 GMT
I'm using Excel 2007, and it calculates it out to be 216.645, when it
should be 0.

Bernie, thank you for the link, I will check it out.

> Ank,
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> >
> > Any ideas?
Bernd P - 03 Oct 2007 18:34 GMT
Hello Bernie,

...
> For example, see:
>
> http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~nhunt/pottel.pdf
...

That document does not tell us when it has been created nor does it
exactly tell used Excel versions (with revisions). The first STDEV
example (10000000001 ... 10000000010) shows a correct result in Excel
2003 11.8105.8107 SP2 for me.

Sorry, I think this document should be revised.

Regards,
Bernd
Bernie Deitrick - 03 Oct 2007 18:52 GMT
Bernd,

Good points.  Maybe this is better:

http://www.daheiser.info/excel/frontpage.html

I don't do a lot of stats, so I don't keep current on the status of the Excel's statistical
package/problems.

Bernie
MS Excel MVP

> Hello Bernie,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Regards,
> Bernd
Bernd P - 03 Oct 2007 17:49 GMT
Hello,

Which version are you using?

I get 216.75 with Excel 2003.

Which is what you think is correct...

Regards,
Bernd
dougaj4@gmail.com - 04 Oct 2007 00:48 GMT
> I don't know if anyone has run into this problem yet or not, but I
> took a list with a bunch of 0, and Excel did not calculate the 25th
> percentile correctly. Here is the list of numbers, and the result that
> excel gave, along with what Google Spreadsheet says:http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pAx-2J0plOyvU7reZfyFGNA
>
> Any ideas?

I have tried this in Excel 2000 and 2007, Open Office, Gnumeric, and
123.

All gave a result of 216.75

This link:
http://www.itl.nist.gov/div898/handbook/prc/section2/prc252.htm

shows why the answer is 216.75 and not 0, using the percentile
definition used by all the spreadsheets I looked at.

216.75 is the value of the 6th item in the list + 0.25 * (7th - 6th) =
0 + 0.25 * 867
dougaj4@gmail.com - 04 Oct 2007 01:12 GMT
Calculator for 8 different types of percentile!

http://www.wessa.net/perc.wasp

It seems old versions of Excel would give 0 rather than 216.75.  It
doesn't say how old, certainly pre 2000.
Jerry W. Lewis - 04 Oct 2007 19:49 GMT
Are you certain that the values are as you reported, rather than formatted
values with hidden non-zero decimal values?  Alternately, you could try the
array formula
 =PERCENTILE(ROUND(data,0),0.25)
entered with Ctrl-Shift-Enter to ensure that you are actually using the
posted data.  The discrepancy between your reported value of 216.645 and
Doug's reported value of 216.75 for the reported data in Excel 2007 is easily
within the uncertainty that could have been introduced by formatting.  The
basis is not clear for your expectation in the follow-up post that the 25th
percentile should be zero.

AFAIK all versions of Excel (at least since v4) have used the same algorithm
for Percentile, which should give 216.75 for the reported data.  Note however
that there is no universally accepted definition of a percentile from sample
data.  Hyndman and Fan, 1996, "Sample Quantiles in Statistical Packages", The
American Statistician 50(4):361-365 discuss 9 different definitions and
reference some others.  Excel uses Hyndman and Fan's 7th definition, which
considers the min and max to be the 0th and 100th percentiles and equally
spaces the quantiles corresponding to intervening observations.  This is a
reasonable description of the sample, but is almost certainly biased as an
estimate of the underlying population quantiles.

Jerry

> I don't know if anyone has run into this problem yet or not, but I
> took a list with a bunch of 0, and Excel did not calculate the 25th
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Any ideas?
dougaj4@gmail.com - 05 Oct 2007 04:13 GMT
> The discrepancy between your reported value of 216.645 and
> Doug's reported value of 216.75 for the reported data in Excel 2007 is easily
> within the uncertainty that could have been introduced by formatting.
> Jerry

Jerry - I don't see how a result of 216.75 displaying as 216.645 could
be a result of formatting.  Can you give an example of how that could
happen?
dougaj4@gmail.com - 05 Oct 2007 05:43 GMT
On Oct 5, 1:13 pm, doug...@gmail.com wrote:

> > The discrepancy between your reported value of 216.645 and
> > Doug's reported value of 216.75 for the reported data in Excel 2007 is easily
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> be a result of formatting.  Can you give an example of how that could
> happen?

Don't worry - I've worked it out.

If the $867 value in Excel is actually $866.58, formatted to show 0
decimal places, the (correct) 25 percentile will be 216.645.

That is most probably what has happened.

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