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MS Office Forum / Publisher / Web Design / March 2007

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Why is web design so damned complicated?

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smerf - 11 Dec 2006 04:55 GMT
Besides the obvious fact that the web is run by a mish-mash of patches
that make it do things it was never intended to do in the first place, why
is the design and deployment of simple websites so damned difficult?

If Santa come out of his drunken stupor while you're around, please tell him
that I want the following.......

I'd like a website designer that.....

- has a widgets panel full of things like calendars, header, column and
footer widgets, scrolling text boxes, bread crumb trail widgets, navigation
widgets, real time date/time widgets, rss feed widgets, a google adsense
widget, rotating ad/image widgets, email form widgets, search widgets (both
site and web), those neat little rounded corner panels in a widget and lots
of 3rd party companies ready to sell me thousands of more widgets.  You
should be able to drag and drop columns and widgets on a web page canvas
just like you did with controls on a form in VB.

- I want to be able to see things display in real time on my canvas the way
they will display in the browser ( you know, like the way a word doc
displays in real time as you edit the word document)  When I drop a widget
in my web page canvas, I want to see it like the surfers will see it - none
of that placeholder crap.

- I want to be ale to edit anything that I drop on the canvas right where
it is and see my changes in real time on the canvas the way the end surfer
will see it.

- I want to be able to click, drag and select one or more objects on the
canvas and give them a name - automatically grouping them and treating them
as a single entity for CSS editing.

- I want CSS editing of my widgets and such to be dumbed down and simple.
Give me a properties list.  Do software developers really expect me to know
all of the properties that could be editable on a particular object?   I'm
doing good just knowing where I am most days.

- Along with those property listings, for each one I need drop downs or
color pallets or whatever will help me choose valid values for the property.
Remember, my goal is to publish good looking, standards based web pages -
not to master CSS, XML, XHTML or whatever other God-forsaken alphabetic hell
some group proposes next.

- I want to be able to click to add another main level page or page beneath
the one I am currently working on.  When that happens, I expect all of my
navigation (site wide) to be undated automatically for me and I expect the
new page to have things like the header, footer and navigation already added
when I see it on my canvas the first time.

- In short, I want a real WISYWIG web page development tool that lets me
concentrate on what I do best - content development and visual design.

   I don't get paid to know all of the inner workings of the web, CSS, ASP,
ASP.Net, PHP or any of that crap.  I get paid to deliver great looking,
functional sites on time.  And, right now, every tool that I have tried
actually works against me in that goal.

   So, sober up Santa!  I need a website designer for website
designers....not for programmers.

Signature

Smerf
"Why don't pet food companies make mouse flavored cat food?"

smerf - 11 Dec 2006 05:59 GMT
As sad as this is......Blue Voda is the closest thing that I have found to a
true drag and drop WYSIWYG web page editor that I have found.
(http://www.bluevoda.com)

Now, if someone could do this slightly more professionally........(by that I
mean keep the simple interface and add widgets and 3rd  party widgets and
such).

It's not that I am opposed to high powered programs....its just that they
are overkill for most small web projects and fall short for most web-based
applications.  Honestly, I don't know what they are really much good
for....I just think there is nothing better out there - so people use what
they have.

Signature

Smerf
"Why don't pet food companies make mouse flavored cat food?"

>    Besides the obvious fact that the web is run by a mish-mash of patches
> that make it do things it was never intended to do in the first place, why
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>    So, sober up Santa!  I need a website designer for website
> designers....not for programmers.
Brandon - 11 Dec 2006 16:47 GMT
This looks similar to the old Drumbeat web design software which Macromedia
bought out years ago, but apparently never did anything with it.

Signature

Brandon

==================
Presentations Direct - http://www.presentationsdirect.com
 > Binding Machines
    http://www.presentationsdirect.com/binding-machines/gbc-binding-machines.asp
 > Laminators
    http://www.presentationsdirect.com/laminators/gbc-laminators.asp
 > Paper Shredders
    http://www.presentationsdirect.com/paper-shredders/gbc-paper-shredders.asp
==================

> As sad as this is......Blue Voda is the closest thing that I have found to
> a true drag and drop WYSIWYG web page editor that I have found.
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
>>    So, sober up Santa!  I need a website designer for website
>> designers....not for programmers.
Brandon - 11 Dec 2006 16:36 GMT
Good list . . . I don't know if I would fully go with something too "canned"
but I can see that the need exists for something like this.

Signature

Brandon

==================
Presentations Direct - http://www.presentationsdirect.com
 > Binding Machines
    http://www.presentationsdirect.com/binding-machines/gbc-binding-machines.asp
 > Laminators
    http://www.presentationsdirect.com/laminators/gbc-laminators.asp
 > Paper Shredders
    http://www.presentationsdirect.com/paper-shredders/gbc-paper-shredders.asp
==================

>    Besides the obvious fact that the web is run by a mish-mash of patches
> that make it do things it was never intended to do in the first place, why
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>    So, sober up Santa!  I need a website designer for website
> designers....not for programmers.
Mike Koewler - 11 Dec 2006 19:22 GMT
Why stop here? Why not a Add in DTP capabilities, so I can select the
images, articles and clipart I want, as well as the number of pages,
then press a key and the pages are finished. It also needs an image
editor - one that I don't need to know the difference between R, G, B,
C, M, Y and K. Why I should need to know a thing about levels, dot gain,
contract, transparency. Put the image on the page and make it look
perfect. And make the resolution is perfect so it looks great and loads
immediately.
Let's not forget about sound and movies. I should be able to insert a CD
or tape into the computer, hit a different key and the file is not only
created, but all the noise is removed and the code added so a visitor
doesn't have to worry about anything but sitting back and listening.

The code it creates needs be be such that it works on IE, Mozilla,
Opera, Safari, Avant and all other browsers, plus is 100 percent with
screen readers. It also needs a method to make sure my site in ranked
first in every search engine.

That should take care of most of my needs.

Oh, and it should be either a free download, preferably under 1 meg so
it doesn't take me any time, or a free CD on a magazine cover.

Mike

>     Besides the obvious fact that the web is run by a mish-mash of patches
> that make it do things it was never intended to do in the first place, why
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>     So, sober up Santa!  I need a website designer for website
> designers....not for programmers.
Rob Giordano (Crash) - 12 Dec 2006 15:20 GMT
And I'd like to be able to work in vector & raster image editing, have it
automatically resize, optimize and rename the file, and automatically file a
copyright and then place it in my web design. I'd also like it to train my
dog to pickup his own damn poop.

| Why stop here? Why not a Add in DTP capabilities, so I can select the
| images, articles and clipart I want, as well as the number of pages,
[quoted text clipped - 80 lines]
| >     So, sober up Santa!  I need a website designer for website
| > designers....not for programmers.
Mike Koewler - 12 Dec 2006 17:11 GMT
Rob,

>> I'd also like it to train my dog to pickup his own damn poop. <<

Couldn't this be added as javascript to the site - in an automatically
created calendar that also includes a routine to fix dinner, do the
dishes and wash the clothes? I don't want my program to become bloatware!

Mike

> And I'd like to be able to work in vector & raster image editing, have it
> automatically resize, optimize and rename the file, and automatically file a
[quoted text clipped - 110 lines]
> | >     So, sober up Santa!  I need a website designer for website
> | > designers....not for programmers.
Rob Giordano (Crash) - 12 Dec 2006 18:17 GMT
And it must work in flawlessly every browser ever invented or to be
invented, and have the ability to run on diesel, petrol, electric, or
polyunsaturated ghee.

| Rob,
|
[quoted text clipped - 120 lines]
| > | >     So, sober up Santa!  I need a website designer for website
| > | > designers....not for programmers.
smerf - 13 Dec 2006 01:22 GMT
You must be a programmer....a sad, frustrated little coder that has let
deadlines and micro managers suck all the fun out of your job.

But, it's programmers like that that have gotten use farther and farther
away from the concept that PCs and software should make life easier - not
add yet another thing we must master.

Lazy programmers and managers that worship the deadline more than the
customer - they are the reason that software sucks.

Signature

Smerf
"Why don't pet food companies make mouse flavored cat food?"

> And it must work in flawlessly every browser ever invented or to be
> invented, and have the ability to run on diesel, petrol, electric, or
[quoted text clipped - 175 lines]
> | > | >     So, sober up Santa!  I need a website designer for website
> | > | > designers....not for programmers.
Rob Giordano (Crash) - 13 Dec 2006 02:31 GMT
Actually you are dead wrong. I'm primarily a photographer & graphics
designer and  have had no problems learning the rules of the road when it
comes to working with FP, DW, PS, XARA, EW, EGD and a  host of other
programs you may need when designing for the web (and dtp as well). There
are plenty of tutes and real books around...try some you might enjoy it.

| You must be a programmer....a sad, frustrated little coder that has let
| deadlines and micro managers suck all the fun out of your job.
[quoted text clipped - 185 lines]
| > | > | >     So, sober up Santa!  I need a website designer for website
| > | > | > designers....not for programmers.
smerf - 13 Dec 2006 01:24 GMT
Don't forget a "Delete Smartass" shortcut key that automatically trashes
posts like yours.
Signature

Smerf
"Why don't pet food companies make mouse flavored cat food?"

> Why stop here? Why not a Add in DTP capabilities, so I can select the
> images, articles and clipart I want, as well as the number of pages, then
[quoted text clipped - 81 lines]
>>     So, sober up Santa!  I need a website designer for website
>> designers....not for programmers.
Mike Koewler - 13 Dec 2006 02:44 GMT
TEE, HEE, HEE!

Maybe Santa will bring you a life for a Christmas present.

Seriously, it's not our fault you are a boob and don't have a clue -
someone that wants life handed to you on a silver platter. And then
probably complain if you have to wipe the tray.

The software available today to allow people to build a website is
remarkable. No, it doesn't cater to inept morons who cannot ask
questions or cut and paste code, but that's your problem.

After you get out of grade school - which should be in about seven years
unless you flunk a bunch of grades, post back with specific questions.
I'm sure someone will help you.

Mike

> Don't forget a "Delete Smartass" shortcut key that automatically trashes
> posts like yours.
ToolmakerSteve - 18 Dec 2006 00:41 GMT
As an add-in programmer, I am busily pondering various task-oriented modules,
that would generate lovely browser-happy CSS + XHTML + Javascript + ASP.NET
C#/VB for you designers.

So I am interested in looking quite carefully at what designers want.  I'm
not worried about what code needs to be generated.  I can handle that.  So
I'm going through your wish list piece by piece.

>  - has a widgets panel ...thousands of ... You should be able to drag and drop columns and widgets on a web page canvas just like you did with controls on a form in VB.

Analysis of EW: Integration of third-party controls into Toolbox is
incomplete.

> I want to be able to see things display in real time on my canvas the way
> they will display in the browser.
>  - I want to be ale to edit anything that I drop on the canvas right where
> it is and see my changes in real time on the canvas the way the end surfer
> will see it.

I agree.  Having thought through work-arounds for the technical issues of
being more thoroughly real-time, my conclusion is that this IS achievable
within reason -- to a MUCH greater degree than EW does.  I'll try to
implement this principle in my add-in window, to the degree it can be done
using this version of EW.

>  - I want to be able to click, drag and select one or more objects on the
> canvas and give them a name - automatically grouping them and treating them
> as a single entity for CSS editing.

Explain.

>  - I want CSS editing of my widgets and such to be dumbed down and simple.
> Give me a properties list. Along with those property listings, for each one I need drop downs > or color pallets or whatever will help me choose valid values for the property.

The "CSS Properties" pane is such a property list.  Click on a given item,
and you get an appropriate drop down or ... to a dialog.

Also, the "New Styles" and "Edit Styles" dialog are forms-based editors for
these properties.

==> Please take a look at those -- is there something you would change?

>  - I want to be able to click to add another main level page or page beneath
> the one I am currently working on.  When that happens, I expect all of my
> navigation (site wide) to be undated automatically for me and I expect the
> new page to have things like the header, footer and navigation already added
> when I see it on my canvas the first time.

*** Navigation - the ASP.NET Menu and SiteMapPath may require a few extra
steps, but do they do what you want?

J-moves.com has one approach to navigation - a javascript based one.

I have started designing a CSS-based solution.  I will take to heart your
desire that the navigation structure automatically update as you add pages.  
[Of course, you will want to type in a short menu item for each page -- page
titles are typically longer than menu items.]

*** New page with header, footer, and navigation - create a Dynamic Web
Template.  Then each time you want a new page, do New / Page / From Dynamic
Web Template ..  Hmm.  Does the job, but is a bit more cumbersome.
Add-in idea: a button on the toolbar that creates a new page from your
"default DWT".

I've now reached the end of your list.

I'm not expecting EW to ever be as fluid as you describe, but I foresee
add-ins getting you much closer on the meat-and-potatoes requests.

-- Steve
Cheryl D Wise - 18 Dec 2006 01:25 GMT
Select the elements you want and right click on the div element in the HTML
Toolbox and select "wrap".  You can then apply a style to the entire div and
use contextual selectors for styling the individual elements as you choose.

A color palette that you can view and save separate from the "add to custom"
in the dropdown box would be a good thing. Like the color palette in
TopStyle.

As far as pages being added automatically to the site navigation, that I do
not want because I don't always organize every menu based on folder
hierarchy.

Signature

Cheryl D Wise
FrontPage MVP
http://by-expression.com
Online Instructor led training at http://starttoweb.com

<snipped>

>>  - I want to be able to click, drag and select one or more objects on the
>> canvas and give them a name - automatically grouping them and treating
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>
> -- Steve
Mike Koewler - 18 Dec 2006 04:22 GMT
Steve,

>> I have started designing a CSS-based solution.  I will take to heart
your desire that the navigation structure automatically update as you
add pages.  <<

That shouldn't be very hard - WebPlus does this now.

Mike

> As an add-in programmer, I am busily pondering various task-oriented modules,
> that would generate lovely browser-happy CSS + XHTML + Javascript + ASP.NET
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
>
> -- Steve
smerf - 18 Dec 2006 09:37 GMT
> As an add-in programmer, I am busily pondering various task-oriented
> modules,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Analysis of EW: Integration of third-party controls into Toolbox is
> incomplete.

Third party addins are key to a program or platform's acceptance over the
competition.  Just look at programs like Firefox for examples of what is
possible when the application is opened up.

To me this make economic sense for the company developong the application.
Develop the most needed/used portions of your app (like the 20% of Word
features that people actually use) and leave the seldom used components for
a 3rd party to develop, distribute and support.

>> I want to be able to see things display in real time on my canvas the way
>> they will display in the browser.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> implement this principle in my add-in window, to the degree it can be done
> using this version of EW.

That would be nice.  One of the things that I hate the most about the .Net
web application design process is the idea of master and content pages is
the arcane way in which they do not show content during development.....only
when you run them do you actually see how they look.

IMHO, it would seem to me that the developers of the ASP.Net stuff would
realize that if their app had to open an external app every time a change is
made to a page (to see if the change was a positive one), they may realize
that something was missing in ASP.Net.

What if you had to actually open a Word document you were editing (or a
photo you were tweaking) after every change to see what effect your change
had on the document or image?  That'd be a nightmare - just like ASP.Net web
development.

>>  - I want to be able to click, drag and select one or more objects on the
>> canvas and give them a name - automatically grouping them and treating
>> them
>> as a single entity for CSS editing.
>
> Explain.

I was thinking of the header and footer regions.  If I place a bunch of text
boxes and images (and whatever) on a page and wish to have all of that
repeat in new pages as the header or footer or navigation, it would be nice
to be able to draw everything, then select multiple items and label them as
a header or footer or whatever - and to be able to mark them as core web
page items that are automatically inserted on new pages.

>>  - I want CSS editing of my widgets and such to be dumbed down and
>> simple.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> ==> Please take a look at those -- is there something you would change?

I will look them over and get back to you.......

>>  - I want to be able to click to add another main level page or page
>> beneath
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> I'm not expecting EW to ever be as fluid as you describe, but I foresee
> add-ins getting you much closer on the meat-and-potatoes requests.

If EW allows 3rd party addins to really extend it....it may be possible to
reach the widest audience of web developers.  They are not programmers, nor
do they desire to be.  They are great with visual design and writing
copy....the app should do the rest.

Thanks for your post.....
Wayne - 18 Feb 2007 04:45 GMT
>     Besides the obvious fact that the web is run by a mish-mash of patches
> that make it do things it was never intended to do in the first place, why
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>     So, sober up Santa!  I need a website designer for website
> designers....not for programmers.

You should be using NetObject Fusion 9 or greater. It meets most of your
list:)
JoAnn Paules [MVP] - 18 Feb 2007 04:59 GMT
Pet food manufacturers create products to appeal to the owners, not the
pets. Do you think my cats really care that they are eating sumptuous
shredded fare? No. they'd rather have warm, stinky, salmon innards. But
could they get 79¢ a can for that? Not from me!

Signature

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~
How to ask a question
http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375

(snip)

>> Smerf
>> "Why don't pet food companies make mouse flavored cat food?"
Jens Peter Karlsen [FP-MVP] - 19 Feb 2007 15:42 GMT
It has always amused me that they make dry food in fish and other
shapes the Pets don't care, nor do I. But I resent that they add
artificial color. This is potentially harmful to the Pets and the Pets
couldn't care less about what color it is. They largely go by smell
and taste. Smell is especially important for felines and canines.
Therefor it is important with resealable bags so the smell is kept
intact. Especially Cats will refuse to eat food that doesn't smell
right.

Well that was a little oftopic.:-)

Regards Jens Peter Karlsen. Microsoft MVP - Frontpage.

>Pet food manufacturers create products to appeal to the owners, not the
>pets. Do you think my cats really care that they are eating sumptuous
>shredded fare? No. they'd rather have warm, stinky, salmon innards. But
>could they get 79¢ a can for that? Not from me!
JoAnn Paules - 19 Feb 2007 16:26 GMT
Well now wait - this newsgroup is about web design and Fancy Feast has a
website so it's not completely off-topic.  ;-)

Signature

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~
How to ask a question
http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375

> It has always amused me that they make dry food in fish and other
> shapes the Pets don't care, nor do I. But I resent that they add
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>>shredded fare? No. they'd rather have warm, stinky, salmon innards. But
>>could they get 79¢ a can for that? Not from me!
McCarthy going mad.com - 02 Mar 2007 14:24 GMT
this is hard work, how do i down load the initial web pages that were posted
when i signed up for EW, im new to all this by the way, i thought it would be
as easy as frontpage used to be, graphical and easy to see what you are
doing, some chance. HELP!!!!!

> Well now wait - this newsgroup is about web design and Fancy Feast has a
> website so it's not completely off-topic.  ;-)
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> >>shredded fare? No. they'd rather have warm, stinky, salmon innards. But
> >>could they get 79¢ a can for that? Not from me!
JoAnn Paules - 02 Mar 2007 16:22 GMT
Oh no! Who told you that EW was ANYTHING AT ALL like Publisher? Please keep
in mind that Publisher is a desktop publishing program for printed
documentation that can also create websites.

I just noticed that you are cross-posting. If you aren't talking about
Publisher, then (1) stop sending messages to that newsgroup and (2) start a
new thread. Unless you are creating a Fancy Feast afficianados website. If
so, send me coupons for the new gourmet flavors!!!

Signature

JoAnn Paules
MVP Microsoft [Publisher]

~~~~~
How to ask a question
http://support.microsoft.com/KB/555375

> this is hard work, how do i down load the initial web pages that were
> posted
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>> >>shredded fare? No. they'd rather have warm, stinky, salmon innards. But
>> >>could they get 79¢ a can for that? Not from me!
 
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