MS Office Forum / Word / Conversions / March 2004
WordPerfect8 to Word 2000 conversion - In-house vs. Third Party
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Julie - 24 Mar 2004 19:29 GMT Does anyone have a definitive answer as to whether, with the appropriate in-house Word and VBA expertise, it is "possible" to get WordPerfect 8 documents converted to STABLE, problem-free, Word documents, or whether the only true solution for "stable" conversion is to pay the big $$ for third party document conversion solutions.
The WordPerfect documents are very consistent in formatting features used. We intend to open the WordPerfect documents from Word, then run a very thorough cleanup process (Word VBA) which fixes everything that we can fix without user intervention, removes what cannot be fixed, re-creates potentially problematic objects such as headers, footers, section breaks, paragraph marks etc., then pastes the whole thing into a new empty Word document to prepare it for styling. Those are just examples of the cleanup processes - there about 100 procedures in total. On the surface, everything looks good, but we are concerned about what may lay under the surface that we cannot see or touch programmatically through Word VBA.
Does that suffice for a "healthy" Word document, or is it absolutely necessary to pre-clean the documents in WordPerfect. We can write the pre-cleaning macros for WordPerfect, but would prefer to avoid that so that users can enjoy a single-step process for document conversion.
Our Firm does not wish to spend the money for third party document conversion UNLESS absolutely necessary, but will consider that if we can get a definitive answer that it "IS" impossible to get reliable, healthy word documents using the conversion processes like the one described generally above.
Any Words of wisdom would be very much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Mary Gudobba - 24 Mar 2004 20:47 GMT What I do when I convert WordPerfect to Word is open the document in Word, I have macros on the toolbar that (i) remove all the "empty" paragraphs, (ii) remove section breaks and (iii) remove field codes. Then I copy everything (Control A) and paste it into a new Word document. At the end I have a document that is ready to be reformatted and since I copied it to a new document all my styles are there waiting for it. The only thing that causes a problem is if the WordPerfect document had curly quotes or apostrophes, but we stopped using those several years ago when we discovered they didn't convert to Word. This works well for us and it sounds like you are removing even more "stuff" before you paste into Word. Have you tried pasting as unformatted text?
> Does anyone have a definitive answer as to whether, with the appropriate > in-house Word and VBA expertise, it is "possible" to get WordPerfect 8 [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Thanks in advance. Julie - 24 Mar 2004 21:32 GMT Thanks Mary. Curly quotes is an issue I have not dealt with just yet. For now, I am just flagging all of the unconverted symbols for manual followup - with automatic replacement of the curly quotes on my list of things yet to be done.
I'm curious .. how well are your tables converting?
> What I do when I convert WordPerfect to Word is open the document in Word, I > have macros on the toolbar that (i) remove all the "empty" paragraphs, (ii) [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > > > Thanks in advance. Charles Kenyon - 24 Mar 2004 22:44 GMT I don't believe it is possible. I haven't tested third-party solutions but unless they reproduce my manual solution I doubt they will work.
The thing is that the converted documents I've worked with have been a mishmash of styles and direct formatting such that editing them is a nightmare. Numbering doesn't translate, neither do fields.
I have WP available on my machine so I open the document in WP and save it to a text document, not .rtf. I then open that in Word. Flipping back and forth between Word and WP I reformat the .txt file in Word using styles until I have a good reproduction of the WP document. I save that as a template.
I do the same with OCR text for the same reason.
I'm sure this isn't what you wanted to hear.
I hope you are aware of the issues with Word's automatic numbering. It is not nearly as stable or simple to use as numbering in WP.
See: How to create numbered headings or outline numbering in your Word document <URL: http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html>. This is based on ...
Word's Numbering Explained <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Numbering/WordsNumberingExplained.htm>
What follows is general advice I give people moving (often unwillingly) from WP to Word. It repeats some of what I said above.
It may be that you already know this or feel you don't need to know it. Feel free to disregard. Word and Word Perfect work very differently from one another. Each program's methods have strengths and weaknesses; but, if you try to use one of these programs as if it were the other, it is like pushing on a string! You can easily make a lot of extra work for yourself. If you are unwilling to take the time to learn to use Word's methods, you should stick to using Word Pad. You'll have a lot less grief, although you'll miss out on a lot of raw power.
See <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/General/WordVsWordPerfect.htm> <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/General/TipsAndGotchas.htm> <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/General/RevealCodes.htm> <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/General/WordPerfectConverters.htm> <URL: http://businesssoft.about.com/compute/businesssoft/library/blconvert.htm> for information on Word for Word Perfect users.
For more: <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/CreateATemplatePart2.htm> <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/CreateATemplatePart1.htm> <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Numbering/WordsNumberingExplained.htm> <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/WhatTemplatesStore.htm>
In Word 2000 (or later) You can get the function keys to display in a special toolbar at the bottom of the screen if you want (something like pressing F3 twice in WP). The following macro will do this. Sub ShowMeFunctionKeys() Commandbars("Function Key Display").Visible = True End Sub
Learn about Styles - really learn! I resisted for years and now regret every day of those years because although that string was still very hard to push, it kept getting longer and longer, and had some very important projects tied to it!
In Word Perfect macros are often used to reproduce text. In Word you want to use templates, AutoText and AutoCorrect for this. You can use FILLIN and ASK fields or UserForms to query the user. For some form documents, Word's "online forms" work very well. For more about online forms, follow the links at <URL: http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Customization/FillinTheBlanks.htm> especially Dian Chapman's series of articles.
I would not recommend using converted documents long-term. They will be filled with formatting anomolies that will get you at the worst time. This is especially true of any documents containing automatic numbering or bullets. Try recreating form documents in Word using the following process:
In Word Perfect (if you still have it, in Word if not) save your files as text files.
Use your converted files as references to show you how you want your formatting to look.
Create a new document in Word and insert the text from the text file. Save this new document as a Word template. Format it the way you want using styles, not direct formatting. Save it again.
To use a template within Word, use File => New and pick your template. This will create a new document for you.
 Signature Charles Kenyon
See the MVP FAQ: <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/> which is awesome! --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- This message is posted to a newsgroup. Please post replies and questions to the newsgroup so that others can learn from my ignorance and your wisdom.
> Does anyone have a definitive answer as to whether, with the appropriate > in-house Word and VBA expertise, it is "possible" to get WordPerfect 8 [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Thanks in advance. Julie - 25 Mar 2004 00:04 GMT Thanks Charles. Certainly any method that involves converting unformatted text is the best, but not always practical when there are hundreds of users with many thousands of documents to convert. Third party solutions "seem" to get the job done (e.g., produce a stable document) without stripping off all of the formatting to the extent that the user must compare each and every paragraph with the WordPerfect document to determine format. I am sure that their cleanup processes are very involved (both as to text and objects), as the procedures that we have. Have you tried out using converted WordPerfect documents with an extensive cleanup macro?
Thanks for the GREAT tip for the command bar popup toolbar macro!!!
> I don't believe it is possible. I haven't tested third-party solutions but > unless they reproduce my manual solution I doubt they will work. [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > For more: > <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/CreateATemplatePart2.htm>
> <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/CreateATemplatePart1.htm>
> <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Numbering/WordsNumberingExplained.htm> > <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/WhatTemplatesStore.htm> [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > > > > Thanks in advance. Mary Gudobba - 25 Mar 2004 15:58 GMT Are you sure you really need to convert that many documents? Are you planning to just mass convert entire directories? Do you really need to convert things like letters from 2003? We have thousands of documents that we never converted, but we still have WordPerfect on the machines. If we need an old document we convert it, but this dosen't happen very much any more.
> Thanks Charles. Certainly any method that involves converting unformatted > text is the best, but not always practical when there are hundreds of users [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Word's Numbering Explained > > <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Numbering/WordsNumberingExplained.htm>
> > What follows is general advice I give people moving (often unwillingly) > from [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/General/WordPerfectConverters.htm> > > <URL: http://businesssoft.about.com/compute/businesssoft/library/blconvert.htm>
> > for information on Word for Word Perfect users. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/CreateATemplatePart1.htm> > > <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Numbering/WordsNumberingExplained.htm>
> > <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/WhatTemplatesStore.htm>
> > In Word 2000 (or later) You can get the function keys to display in a > > special toolbar at the bottom of the screen if you want (something like [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > > > > > > Thanks in advance. Julie - 25 Mar 2004 16:28 GMT Thanks for the reply Mary,
Yes, we need that many. Thousands of documents will be left behind, but thousands will also be converted. The application is Legal, thus old documents are often used as precedents for new documents. Documents for files in progress will be converted on demand, as will old documents that the lawyer wishes to use as a precedent for a new document. Organized precedent libraries will be converted in a batch. Some of the documents and precedents "are" letters. Users have tools for reformatting a "cleaned/converted" Word document to the firm's standard for Word correspondence templates, so that is not an issue provided that we can get a stable document in the first place.
Our question is: with a vigorous cleaning procedure running in Word after opening the WordPerfect Document, and with pasting that cleaned Word Document into a new word window, and after that running automated tools to result in a fully styled document, do we have reasonable likelihood of ending up with a healthy Word document? I know that at least some of the third party conversion venders carry out some of the cleanup process within WordPerfect before opening the document in Word, and I am concerned that if we skip that step, we may not end up with a stable Word documents.
Our ISSUE is then, to spend approximately $5K for writing in-house conversion tools vs. approximately 5 time that amount for third party conversion solutions.
It would be very helpful for me to hear from people like you who use their own cleanup tools and enjoy a high level of document stability with the converted documents. I am not looking for 100% but looking for around 95%. Some documents will be problematic and will have to be handled individually, cleaned in WordPerfect then reconverted. Again, Firm users were consistent in how WordPerfect was used and therefore, we can expect a high degree of consistency in the documents to be converted.
Thanks, Julie
> Are you sure you really need to convert that many documents? Are you > planning to just mass convert entire directories? Do you really need to [quoted text clipped - 184 lines] > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance. Mary Gudobba - 25 Mar 2004 17:29 GMT We are also legal application - real estate - so we have a lot of large, complex documents. The only processing in WordPerfect that we've ever gone back to do is replace the curly quotes with straight ones (by turning off the curly quote feature and then doing a search and replace of quote marks and apostrophes) and we use a text box on some documents that says DRAFT and the date. The text box doesn't always cause a problem, but when it does, we delete it and then convert. By the way, you'll probably find that any symbol that is not on a standard keyboard will probably not convert. I think the process you are proposing is the best you can do. Once unformatted text is pasted into a new Word document it should be fine. I don't think spending the money on a conversion program would be cost effective, based on the process you intend to use. The money would be better spent training the staff to use Word effectively. If you can, find someone who is an expert in both WordPerfect and Word to do the training.
> Thanks for the reply Mary, > [quoted text clipped - 119 lines] > > > > <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/General/RevealCodes.htm> > > > > <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/General/WordPerfectConverters.htm>
> > > > <URL: http://businesssoft.about.com/compute/businesssoft/library/blconvert.htm>
> > > > for information on Word for Word Perfect users. > > > > [quoted text clipped - 114 lines] > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance. Julie - 25 Mar 2004 19:31 GMT Thanks Mary. I'm happy to hear that you are working with real estate documents - they tend to be the "ugliest" in terms of conversion. Knowing that you are successfully converting real estate documents leads me into the direction of continuing with the in-house option. As for Symbols, I have a function that finds all unconverted WordPerfect symbols and flags them. For a few specific, important symbols, I find them and convert them to their unicode equivalents. Maybe I'll get more generous as to smart quotes when I have time and automatically convert them, but for now, onus is on the user to deal with flagged (unconverted) symbols after the conversion if finished.
Thanks so much for your input. It makes a difference for the decision at hand.
> We are also legal application - real estate - so we have a lot of large, > complex documents. The only processing in WordPerfect that we've ever gone [quoted text clipped - 165 lines] > > > > > For more: > > > > > <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/CreateATemplatePart2.htm>
> > > > > <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/CreateATemplatePart1.htm>
> > > > > <URL: > > > http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Numbering/WordsNumberingExplained.htm> [quoted text clipped - 128 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance. Charles Kenyon - 25 Mar 2004 17:42 GMT I would be leery of any conversion of automatic numbering. Third party conversion software may or may not deal with it well. Take a look at the first two articles I listed on numbering, Shauna Kelly's and John McGhie's.
 Signature
Charles Kenyon
See the MVP FAQ: <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/> which is awesome! --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- This message is posted to a newsgroup. Please post replies and questions to the newsgroup so that others can learn from my ignorance and your wisdom.
> Thanks for the reply Mary, > [quoted text clipped - 119 lines] > > > > <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/General/RevealCodes.htm> > > > > <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/General/WordPerfectConverters.htm>
> > > > <URL: http://businesssoft.about.com/compute/businesssoft/library/blconvert.htm>
> > > > for information on Word for Word Perfect users. > > > > [quoted text clipped - 114 lines] > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance. Julie - 25 Mar 2004 19:37 GMT Thanks for the warning about numbering Charles - you are so right. I don't allow WordPerfect outline numbering to survive the conversion, it automatically gets converted to text before the document is pasted into the new window so the old styles and list templates are discarded, and the user can use the numbering conversion tools later to convert the hard-coded numbered paragraphs to number-styled paragraphs. I do allow the sequence numbering fields to come through because it is much more reliable to convert the numbering to numbered styles when working with sequence fields rather than hard-coded text. The users will be trained that they "MUST" use the tool to convert the sequence fields to numbered styles, and I expect most will because they will soon find that sequence numbering can be a little tedious for people who don't know how to use it, to say the least!
Thank you for the input.
> I would be leery of any conversion of automatic numbering. Third party > conversion software may or may not deal with it well. Take a look at the [quoted text clipped - 153 lines] > > > > > For more: > > > > > <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/CreateATemplatePart2.htm>
> > > > > <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/CreateATemplatePart1.htm>
> > > > > <URL: > > > http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Numbering/WordsNumberingExplained.htm> [quoted text clipped - 128 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance. Charles Kenyon - 25 Mar 2004 21:58 GMT I haven't because for the most part what I deal with are forms or documents I get from other lawyers. I've been using Word primarily for more than 10 years (with a brief forced flirtation with Clarisworks).
 Signature Charles Kenyon
See the MVP FAQ: <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/> which is awesome! --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- This message is posted to a newsgroup. Please post replies and questions to the newsgroup so that others can learn from my ignorance and your wisdom.
> Thanks Charles. Certainly any method that involves converting unformatted > text is the best, but not always practical when there are hundreds of users [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Word's Numbering Explained > > <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Numbering/WordsNumberingExplained.htm>
> > What follows is general advice I give people moving (often unwillingly) > from [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/General/WordPerfectConverters.htm> > > <URL: http://businesssoft.about.com/compute/businesssoft/library/blconvert.htm>
> > for information on Word for Word Perfect users. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/CreateATemplatePart1.htm> > > <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Numbering/WordsNumberingExplained.htm>
> > <URL: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/WhatTemplatesStore.htm>
> > In Word 2000 (or later) You can get the function keys to display in a > > special toolbar at the bottom of the screen if you want (something like [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > > > > > > Thanks in advance.
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