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MS Office Forum / Word / Long Documents / April 2004

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Mac document loses formatting on PC

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aboyer - 31 Mar 2004 18:08 GMT
I have about 100 documents that were transferred from a
Mac with Office 98 to a PC with Office XP.  These
documents have specific formatting, and apparently Times
New Roman is slightly larger than the "Times" font on the
Mac and the pages spill over by a couple of lines per
page. Is there any way to fix this, or another font that
will give me the same exact spacing as "Times" did on the
Mac?  Help, Please!
Dayo Mitchell - 31 Mar 2004 18:32 GMT
Cross-posting reply to a MacWord ng in case somebody knows the answer
offhand.

Usually one prevents this problem--either by setting up text so it flows and
doesn't depend on manually forcing pagination, or by using TNR on the Mac. I
don't know of any easy fixes for it after the fact, and suspect you will
have to experiment.  If so, post back and let us know if anything worked.

You could try changing the spacing instead of the font, I always feel
Windows prints with bigger double spacing than Mac does.  Under Format |
Paragraph, try setting the line spacing to Exactly something.  Suggest you
experiment on copies.  Alternatively, measure the Mac Times font (height of
letters and degree of spacing) and look for a font with the same
measurements.

DM

> I have about 100 documents that were transferred from a
> Mac with Office 98 to a PC with Office XP.  These
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> will give me the same exact spacing as "Times" did on the
> Mac?  Help, Please!
John McGhie [MVP - Word] - 02 Apr 2004 09:09 GMT
Dayo:

You are correct.  There is no font that is an exact match.  You can fiddle
around with the Compatibility Options in Tools>Options>Print, but it is
usually best to set those all to OFF so you can see what you are doing, then
repaginate the document correctly.

Set your Compatibility Options to the latest (Word 2002 in your case) so
that all the options are OFF.

Then follow Dayo's advice: use paragraph properties instead of hard page
breaks to flow your pages, so next time you change machines or printers you
won't have to do this all again.

Hope this helps

This responds to article
<BC906AC9.25955%dayomitchell_1997@NOhotmailSPAM.com.invalid>, from "Dayo
Mitchell" <dayomitchell_1997@NOhotmailSPAM.com.invalid> on 1/4/04 3:32 AM:

> Cross-posting reply to a MacWord ng in case somebody knows the answer
> offhand.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>> will give me the same exact spacing as "Times" did on the
>> Mac?  Help, Please!

Signature

Please respond only to the newsgroup to preserve the thread.

John McGhie, Consultant Technical Writer,
McGhie Information Engineering Pty Ltd
Sydney, Australia.  GMT + 10 Hrs
+61 4 1209 1410, mailto:john@mcghie.name

Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. - 03 Apr 2004 01:09 GMT
Another thing to consider is that all its life PC's use 96dpi or
occasionally 100dpi displays.Mac since infancy has always used 72 DPI
displays and do to this day.

So an Arial Font is shown 72dpi in Mac and 95dpi on a PC so the 14pt Arial
Font will show 72/96 as much on a Mac if it originate on a PC. And if a 14
pt Arial font written on Mac it will appear 96/72 as much a PC. even aspect
ratio of the characters are different Pc's taller, skinner, Mac's wider and
shorter. because of these display differences documents will always be
short, or longer and have different page lengths. The only way the same
document will look exactly the same on a PC or Mac, is if its converted to a PDF.

> Dayo:
>
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> Sydney, Australia.  GMT + 10 Hrs
> +61 4 1209 1410, mailto:john@mcghie.name

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Tim Murray - 03 Apr 2004 13:10 GMT
Prove me wrong, but I put forth that this information is misleading.

> Another thing to consider is that all its life PC's use 96dpi or
> occasionally 100dpi displays. Mac since infancy has always used 72 DPI
> displays and do to this day.

All monitors have, of course, some number of raster lines (or dots in an LCD)
per inch, but rarely, if ever, is that value 96, 100, or even 72. But the
point is that its bearing on the subject matter is meaningless. No, actually,
it has no bearing.

> So an Arial Font is shown 72dpi in Mac and 95dpi on a PC so the 14pt Arial
> Font will show 72/96 as much on a Mac if it originate on a PC. And if a 14
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> document will look exactly the same on a PC or Mac, is if its converted to a
> PDF.

Software does not reflow text on paper because of the monitor's resolution.
Resolution *may* have a bearing on Word's Normal page view, but that's not
the printed view anyway.
Graham Mayor - 03 Apr 2004 14:12 GMT
The resolution of the monitor has no bearing on text flow.

That is almost entirely determined by the font outlines available and the
printer driver.

Signature

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    Graham Mayor -  Word MVP

  Web site www.gmayor.com
 Word MVP web site www.mvps.org/word
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>

> Another thing to consider is that all its life PC's use 96dpi or
> occasionally 100dpi displays.Mac since infancy has always used 72 DPI
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
>> Sydney, Australia.  GMT + 10 Hrs
>> +61 4 1209 1410, mailto:john@mcghie.name
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. - 04 Apr 2004 16:59 GMT
But how the text flows on the monitor dtermines how you layout your page.
and I don't know about your printer. But on my Monitor and printer the
layout I see on the screen (not the size the print shows on the screen is
exactly what is printed.

I swap word files with a fellow in Dover del and he uses Word for PC and, he
is always having to reformat the document to his liking when receiving mine
and the reverse is true.

Also I can print a document from a PC and the same document from my Mac
using the same Font Arial. and its a totally different look. On the Mac it
tends to look exactly as it would on a Typwriter. On the PC Its not jagged,
but its not exactly somoth either. Also the spacing and the size of
characters seem different as well.

So something is causing a difference.

> The resolution of the monitor has no bearing on text flow.
>
[quoted text clipped - 83 lines]
> >> Sydney, Australia.  GMT + 10 Hrs
> >> +61 4 1209 1410, mailto:john@mcghie.name

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Graham Mayor - 04 Apr 2004 17:46 GMT
The reflow is caused by the different printer drivers and font outlines -
not the screen resolution. By the same font outlines I mean the identical
files, not merely the same names - I am not even sure that this is possible
between Mac and PC.

Signature

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    Graham Mayor -  Word MVP

     Web site www.gmayor.com
 Word MVP web site www.mvps.org/word
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>

> But how the text flows on the monitor dtermines how you layout your
> page. and I don't know about your printer. But on my Monitor and
[quoted text clipped - 102 lines]
>>>> Sydney, Australia.  GMT + 10 Hrs
>>>> +61 4 1209 1410, mailto:john@mcghie.name
Clive Huggan - 04 Apr 2004 19:03 GMT
In supporting Graham's comment, here is an extract from a Microsoft article
(can't give the reference at present because IE is busy doing very long
downloads in the background):

~~~~~~~~~~~
Despite their similar appearance, the standard Macintosh TrueType fonts
(Times, Helvetica, and Courier) are actually quite different from the
standard Windows fonts (Times New Roman, Arial, and Courier New). These
fonts come from broadly the same font families, but the font metrics of the
font sets are different. Even a very short document that uses these fonts
can exhibit noticeable change in pagination when you move it to the other
platform, and long documents can display a considerable amount of change.

Word for the Macintosh uses Microsoft¹s TrueType font set for the Macintosh,
including Times New Roman, Arial, Courier New, and Wingdings. These are the
same TrueType fonts that come with Microsoft Windows. This offers a
consistent base set of fonts for every Word user, minimizing font-mapping
difficulties when you cross platforms.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is for OS 9; the principle is the same for OS X.

-- Clive Huggan
Canberra, Australia
============================================================
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from my address above. Please note that e-mails with an attachment will be
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* If anyone is still reading down this far, here's a question: is it time
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(This should be on a medium other than the internal hard drive and, if you
also want to protect against theft and fire, stored in a different
building.)
============================================================

> The reflow is caused by the different printer drivers and font outlines -
> not the screen resolution. By the same font outlines I mean the identical
> files, not merely the same names - I am not even sure that this is possible
> between Mac and PC.
Signature

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
    Graham Mayor -  Word MVP

     Web site www.gmayor.com
 Word MVP web site www.mvps.org/word
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>

Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:

> But how the text flows on the monitor dtermines how you layout your
> page. and I don't know about your printer. But on my Monitor and
[quoted text clipped - 109 lines]
>>>> Sydney, Australia.  GMT + 10 Hrs
>>>> +61 4 1209 1410, mailto:john@mcghie.name
Phillip M. Jones, CE.T. - 04 Apr 2004 22:29 GMT
> In supporting Graham's comment, here is an extract from a Microsoft article
> (can't give the reference at present because IE is busy doing very long
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>>files, not merely the same names - I am not even sure that this is possible
>>between Mac and PC.

When working with this person I  do use Times New Roman, Arial, Courier New, and
Wingdings in Documents we swap. Plus other fonts that are in the office packge that
are designated MS fonts by MS being the the name

I m careful not to use inserted page breaks but returns (caridge returns on PC's).

We still have Line drift and other problems.

The information I noted about the sizes were actually posted on a website years ago.
Back in the days when I owned an SE/30.

I've since gone from that to a 7100/66 and finally to a G4-500 using a DiamondPoint
NX86LCD Mitsubishi Monitor. the SE/30 used a 9" monitor, I used a 15" monitor about
7 months ago when I bought this monitor. I've always used HP deskjet printers except
when I had the SE/30 I used an ImageWriterII.

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If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:pjones@kimbanet.com

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
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Elliott Roper - 04 Apr 2004 23:45 GMT
> > In supporting Graham's comment, here is an extract from a Microsoft article
> > (can't give the reference at present because IE is busy doing very long
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> 7 months ago when I bought this monitor. I've always used HP deskjet printers except
> when I had the SE/30 I used an ImageWriterII.

The screen size does not matter at all. What matters are the font
metrics. Sadly, just because a font has the same name on two machines
does not imply they are the same font. You might ask your PC using
correspondent to send you copies of his Trutype Arial etc. Hide yours
and install his.

Even with identical fonts in your machines, you still may not get the
lines and pages breaking exactly the same on both machines. How can
this be? Two reasons I can think of.
1. One of your printers may be too smart for itself. It may be
substituting its own resident font for yours. I guess this should not
affect line breaks or page breaks, but might make the spacing look
untidy, although compared to Word's native interword performance on
screen it may look simply beautiful.
2. The printers may have different margins - the strip round the
outside of the paper that they can't print on. This may show up in the
printer drivers telling word to make the print area wider or longer for
each page. Usually that results in disappearing footers, but you never
know.

Someone will be along in a minute to say that Word is not meant to keep
the page breaks between machines. Anyone who has ever had to get a Word
CV through a field of vegetables posing as a recruitment agency to a
potential employer with a PA who only knows how to do her nails, knows
that this is simply not meeting ordinary folk's needs.

The 'keep with next' and 'keep lines together' formatting advice is a
useful palliative, but the fact that this question keeps coming up is
evidence that Word is not fit for the purpose that many people want
from it, whether or not it was a design goal of the  product to avoid
rigidly locking the viewers' perceptions of what the author thought was
the finished article.

Like I have said before, I usually ship a PDF[1] as well, so that the
recipient can see how nice it was when it left. Most of them turn my
beautiful Adobe Garamond into Times New Roman, butcher the leading, and
slaughter my carefully crafted heading styles - probably without even
noticing the difference.

Have you ever collaborated on a long document over the phone? "Turn to
page 353.." You mean 349?" Near enough, find a paragraph that starts
"One of your printers may be too smart for itself.. somewhere about
there, you know, just search for it.. oh, you have lost the footnote
reference, in the split pane at the bottom.. oh well.. "

It just is not good enough. It wouldn't be so bad if track changes
worked properly  across platforms and versions and users.

I should get a database of rants. Then I could just say
"insert rant no.4 here"

[1] "Insert rant 7 here".. the one about Word sending eps previews to
PDF instead of the real thing.

Signature

I thought I would be the last on earth to mangle my e-mail address.
fsnospam$elliott$$

Phillip M. Jones, CE.T. - 04 Apr 2004 22:17 GMT
> The reflow is caused by the different printer drivers and font outlines -
> not the screen resolution. By the same font outlines I mean the identical
> files, not merely the same names - I am not even sure that this is possible
> between Mac and PC.

I like to use if I can MS Fonts for MS documents because those are Truetype and are
supposed to be identical on PC or Mac.

Supposedly when Adobe retools their type to this OpenType series. If a Mac and a PC
download this OpenType font (whatever font that might be). then it is supposed to
look exactly the same on both platforms. All the angles and curves are supposed to
print the same on any printer and show exactly the same on any monitor - except for
the differences monitor size (appear smaller on a 15" monitor than a 18" monitor.

I'd like to see Arial and Benguiat to be the first two to be converted to OpenType.
I would buy them.

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Phillip M. Jones, CET      |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
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If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:pjones@kimbanet.com

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://home.kimbanet.com/~pjones/birthday/index.htm>
<http://vpea.exis.net

Tim Murray - 05 Apr 2004 01:28 GMT
> I like to use if I can MS Fonts for MS documents because
> those are Truetype and are supposed to be identical on PC
> or Mac.

Character shapes may be the same, but line-wrap wise, that is not always true
in Word. Word has a great dependency on the printer driver, and may reflow
text as you switch from printer to printer. It will do this whether you are
using TrueType, Type 1, or OpenType.  In contrast, other applications, such
as those from Adobe, rely on the metrics of the font and could care less
about the printer driver.

Also, in Word, you will get closer equivalency between machines when both are
using Type 1 + ATM then when both are using TrueHype (intentional typo).

> If a Mac and a PC download this OpenType font (whatever font
> that might be). then it is supposed to look exactly the same
> on both platforms. All the angles and curves are supposed to
> print the same on any printer and show exactly the same on
> any monitor -

Only partially true, again, in that the characters will look the same but
Word might rewrap. I've heard, however, that the issue will be lessened in
upcoming releases.

> except for the differences monitor size (appear
> smaller on a 15" monitor than a 18" monitor.

Not always true; depends on the application. Some apps, like FrameMaker, can
be configured to show 100% size at true 100% size, and thus a 12-point type
on monitor X is the same as on monitor Y, if both are configured properly.
Tim Murray - 05 Apr 2004 01:46 GMT
> I'd like to see Arial and Benguiat to be the first two to be
> converted to OpenType

Arial already is available in OpenType (you may have it and don't know it --
version 2.76 is OpenType), but it's based on TrueType.  Benguait is available
from Adobe in Type 1-based OpenType.
Phillip M. Jones, CE.T. - 05 Apr 2004 20:03 GMT
>>I'd like to see Arial and Benguiat to be the first two to be
>>converted to OpenType
>
> Arial already is available in OpenType (you may have it and don't know it --
> version 2.76 is OpenType), but it's based on TrueType.  Benguait is available
> from Adobe in Type 1-based OpenType.

where can you get them. the latest version I have of Arial is v2.60
I know my version of Benguiat is old I purchased direct from adobe several years ago.

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Phillip M. Jones, CET      |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street         |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!

mailto:pjones@kimbanet.com

<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://home.kimbanet.com/~pjones/birthday/index.htm>
<http://vpea.exis.net

Tim Murray - 06 Apr 2004 01:12 GMT
> where can you get them. the latest version I have of Arial is v2.60

I don't know. I maintain a library of fonts outside of the control of
Windows. When I get a new MS product CD and install it, I examine the common
fonts, and as their versions increase, I grab the newest version and move it
to my library. It may have come on the Service Pack 4 CD.
Tim Murray - 01 Apr 2004 02:51 GMT
> apparently Times New Roman is slightly larger than the
> "Times" font on the Mac

Times and Times New Roman, while having some different character shapes, are
metrically equivalent, at least within the same platform. However, Word is
quite dependent on the printer driver -- change from printer A to B on the
same computer and you may find your line endings change.

Apple's standard Times (or Times NR, I forget) that shipped for years was
garbage. They mixed TrueType and Type 1 in the same suitcase, and then failed
to ship an outline file to boot. But you could procure Type 1 Times from
Adobe on Windows and perhaps get a decent match.
 
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