MS Office Forum / Word / Long Documents / April 2004
Mac document loses formatting on PC
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aboyer - 31 Mar 2004 18:08 GMT I have about 100 documents that were transferred from a Mac with Office 98 to a PC with Office XP. These documents have specific formatting, and apparently Times New Roman is slightly larger than the "Times" font on the Mac and the pages spill over by a couple of lines per page. Is there any way to fix this, or another font that will give me the same exact spacing as "Times" did on the Mac? Help, Please!
Dayo Mitchell - 31 Mar 2004 18:32 GMT Cross-posting reply to a MacWord ng in case somebody knows the answer offhand.
Usually one prevents this problem--either by setting up text so it flows and doesn't depend on manually forcing pagination, or by using TNR on the Mac. I don't know of any easy fixes for it after the fact, and suspect you will have to experiment. If so, post back and let us know if anything worked.
You could try changing the spacing instead of the font, I always feel Windows prints with bigger double spacing than Mac does. Under Format | Paragraph, try setting the line spacing to Exactly something. Suggest you experiment on copies. Alternatively, measure the Mac Times font (height of letters and degree of spacing) and look for a font with the same measurements.
DM
> I have about 100 documents that were transferred from a > Mac with Office 98 to a PC with Office XP. These [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > will give me the same exact spacing as "Times" did on the > Mac? Help, Please! John McGhie [MVP - Word] - 02 Apr 2004 09:09 GMT Dayo:
You are correct. There is no font that is an exact match. You can fiddle around with the Compatibility Options in Tools>Options>Print, but it is usually best to set those all to OFF so you can see what you are doing, then repaginate the document correctly.
Set your Compatibility Options to the latest (Word 2002 in your case) so that all the options are OFF.
Then follow Dayo's advice: use paragraph properties instead of hard page breaks to flow your pages, so next time you change machines or printers you won't have to do this all again.
Hope this helps
This responds to article <BC906AC9.25955%dayomitchell_1997@NOhotmailSPAM.com.invalid>, from "Dayo Mitchell" <dayomitchell_1997@NOhotmailSPAM.com.invalid> on 1/4/04 3:32 AM:
> Cross-posting reply to a MacWord ng in case somebody knows the answer > offhand. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> will give me the same exact spacing as "Times" did on the >> Mac? Help, Please!
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Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. - 03 Apr 2004 01:09 GMT Another thing to consider is that all its life PC's use 96dpi or occasionally 100dpi displays.Mac since infancy has always used 72 DPI displays and do to this day.
So an Arial Font is shown 72dpi in Mac and 95dpi on a PC so the 14pt Arial Font will show 72/96 as much on a Mac if it originate on a PC. And if a 14 pt Arial font written on Mac it will appear 96/72 as much a PC. even aspect ratio of the characters are different Pc's taller, skinner, Mac's wider and shorter. because of these display differences documents will always be short, or longer and have different page lengths. The only way the same document will look exactly the same on a PC or Mac, is if its converted to a PDF.
> Dayo: > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > Sydney, Australia. GMT + 10 Hrs > +61 4 1209 1410, mailto:john@mcghie.name
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Tim Murray - 03 Apr 2004 13:10 GMT Prove me wrong, but I put forth that this information is misleading.
> Another thing to consider is that all its life PC's use 96dpi or > occasionally 100dpi displays. Mac since infancy has always used 72 DPI > displays and do to this day. All monitors have, of course, some number of raster lines (or dots in an LCD) per inch, but rarely, if ever, is that value 96, 100, or even 72. But the point is that its bearing on the subject matter is meaningless. No, actually, it has no bearing.
> So an Arial Font is shown 72dpi in Mac and 95dpi on a PC so the 14pt Arial > Font will show 72/96 as much on a Mac if it originate on a PC. And if a 14 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > document will look exactly the same on a PC or Mac, is if its converted to a > PDF. Software does not reflow text on paper because of the monitor's resolution. Resolution *may* have a bearing on Word's Normal page view, but that's not the printed view anyway.
Graham Mayor - 03 Apr 2004 14:12 GMT The resolution of the monitor has no bearing on text flow.
That is almost entirely determined by the font outlines available and the printer driver.
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> Another thing to consider is that all its life PC's use 96dpi or > occasionally 100dpi displays.Mac since infancy has always used 72 DPI [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] >> Sydney, Australia. GMT + 10 Hrs >> +61 4 1209 1410, mailto:john@mcghie.name Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. - 04 Apr 2004 16:59 GMT But how the text flows on the monitor dtermines how you layout your page. and I don't know about your printer. But on my Monitor and printer the layout I see on the screen (not the size the print shows on the screen is exactly what is printed.
I swap word files with a fellow in Dover del and he uses Word for PC and, he is always having to reformat the document to his liking when receiving mine and the reverse is true.
Also I can print a document from a PC and the same document from my Mac using the same Font Arial. and its a totally different look. On the Mac it tends to look exactly as it would on a Typwriter. On the PC Its not jagged, but its not exactly somoth either. Also the spacing and the size of characters seem different as well.
So something is causing a difference.
> The resolution of the monitor has no bearing on text flow. > [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] > >> Sydney, Australia. GMT + 10 Hrs > >> +61 4 1209 1410, mailto:john@mcghie.name
 Signature --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phillip M. Jones, CET |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling 616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868 Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!
mailto:pjones@kimbanet.com
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Graham Mayor - 04 Apr 2004 17:46 GMT The reflow is caused by the different printer drivers and font outlines - not the screen resolution. By the same font outlines I mean the identical files, not merely the same names - I am not even sure that this is possible between Mac and PC.
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> But how the text flows on the monitor dtermines how you layout your > page. and I don't know about your printer. But on my Monitor and [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] >>>> Sydney, Australia. GMT + 10 Hrs >>>> +61 4 1209 1410, mailto:john@mcghie.name Clive Huggan - 04 Apr 2004 19:03 GMT In supporting Graham's comment, here is an extract from a Microsoft article (can't give the reference at present because IE is busy doing very long downloads in the background):
~~~~~~~~~~~ Despite their similar appearance, the standard Macintosh TrueType fonts (Times, Helvetica, and Courier) are actually quite different from the standard Windows fonts (Times New Roman, Arial, and Courier New). These fonts come from broadly the same font families, but the font metrics of the font sets are different. Even a very short document that uses these fonts can exhibit noticeable change in pagination when you move it to the other platform, and long documents can display a considerable amount of change.
Word for the Macintosh uses Microsoft¹s TrueType font set for the Macintosh, including Times New Roman, Arial, Courier New, and Wingdings. These are the same TrueType fonts that come with Microsoft Windows. This offers a consistent base set of fonts for every Word user, minimizing font-mapping difficulties when you cross platforms. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ This is for OS 9; the principle is the same for OS X.
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* If anyone is still reading down this far, here's a question: is it time for you to back up your Normal template and all your Word settings files? (This should be on a medium other than the internal hard drive and, if you also want to protect against theft and fire, stored in a different building.) ============================================================
> The reflow is caused by the different printer drivers and font outlines - > not the screen resolution. By the same font outlines I mean the identical > files, not merely the same names - I am not even sure that this is possible > between Mac and PC.  Signature <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> Graham Mayor - Word MVP
Web site www.gmayor.com Word MVP web site www.mvps.org/word <>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T. wrote:
> But how the text flows on the monitor dtermines how you layout your > page. and I don't know about your printer. But on my Monitor and [quoted text clipped - 109 lines] >>>> Sydney, Australia. GMT + 10 Hrs >>>> +61 4 1209 1410, mailto:john@mcghie.name Phillip M. Jones, CE.T. - 04 Apr 2004 22:29 GMT > In supporting Graham's comment, here is an extract from a Microsoft article > (can't give the reference at present because IE is busy doing very long [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >>files, not merely the same names - I am not even sure that this is possible >>between Mac and PC. When working with this person I do use Times New Roman, Arial, Courier New, and Wingdings in Documents we swap. Plus other fonts that are in the office packge that are designated MS fonts by MS being the the name
I m careful not to use inserted page breaks but returns (caridge returns on PC's).
We still have Line drift and other problems.
The information I noted about the sizes were actually posted on a website years ago. Back in the days when I owned an SE/30.
I've since gone from that to a 7100/66 and finally to a G4-500 using a DiamondPoint NX86LCD Mitsubishi Monitor. the SE/30 used a 9" monitor, I used a 15" monitor about 7 months ago when I bought this monitor. I've always used HP deskjet printers except when I had the SE/30 I used an ImageWriterII.
 Signature --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phillip M. Jones, CET |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling 616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868 Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!
mailto:pjones@kimbanet.com
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm> <http://home.kimbanet.com/~pjones/birthday/index.htm> <http://vpea.exis.net
Elliott Roper - 04 Apr 2004 23:45 GMT > > In supporting Graham's comment, here is an extract from a Microsoft article > > (can't give the reference at present because IE is busy doing very long [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > 7 months ago when I bought this monitor. I've always used HP deskjet printers except > when I had the SE/30 I used an ImageWriterII. The screen size does not matter at all. What matters are the font metrics. Sadly, just because a font has the same name on two machines does not imply they are the same font. You might ask your PC using correspondent to send you copies of his Trutype Arial etc. Hide yours and install his.
Even with identical fonts in your machines, you still may not get the lines and pages breaking exactly the same on both machines. How can this be? Two reasons I can think of. 1. One of your printers may be too smart for itself. It may be substituting its own resident font for yours. I guess this should not affect line breaks or page breaks, but might make the spacing look untidy, although compared to Word's native interword performance on screen it may look simply beautiful. 2. The printers may have different margins - the strip round the outside of the paper that they can't print on. This may show up in the printer drivers telling word to make the print area wider or longer for each page. Usually that results in disappearing footers, but you never know.
Someone will be along in a minute to say that Word is not meant to keep the page breaks between machines. Anyone who has ever had to get a Word CV through a field of vegetables posing as a recruitment agency to a potential employer with a PA who only knows how to do her nails, knows that this is simply not meeting ordinary folk's needs.
The 'keep with next' and 'keep lines together' formatting advice is a useful palliative, but the fact that this question keeps coming up is evidence that Word is not fit for the purpose that many people want from it, whether or not it was a design goal of the product to avoid rigidly locking the viewers' perceptions of what the author thought was the finished article.
Like I have said before, I usually ship a PDF[1] as well, so that the recipient can see how nice it was when it left. Most of them turn my beautiful Adobe Garamond into Times New Roman, butcher the leading, and slaughter my carefully crafted heading styles - probably without even noticing the difference.
Have you ever collaborated on a long document over the phone? "Turn to page 353.." You mean 349?" Near enough, find a paragraph that starts "One of your printers may be too smart for itself.. somewhere about there, you know, just search for it.. oh, you have lost the footnote reference, in the split pane at the bottom.. oh well.. "
It just is not good enough. It wouldn't be so bad if track changes worked properly across platforms and versions and users.
I should get a database of rants. Then I could just say "insert rant no.4 here"
[1] "Insert rant 7 here".. the one about Word sending eps previews to PDF instead of the real thing.
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Phillip M. Jones, CE.T. - 04 Apr 2004 22:17 GMT > The reflow is caused by the different printer drivers and font outlines - > not the screen resolution. By the same font outlines I mean the identical > files, not merely the same names - I am not even sure that this is possible > between Mac and PC. I like to use if I can MS Fonts for MS documents because those are Truetype and are supposed to be identical on PC or Mac.
Supposedly when Adobe retools their type to this OpenType series. If a Mac and a PC download this OpenType font (whatever font that might be). then it is supposed to look exactly the same on both platforms. All the angles and curves are supposed to print the same on any printer and show exactly the same on any monitor - except for the differences monitor size (appear smaller on a 15" monitor than a 18" monitor.
I'd like to see Arial and Benguiat to be the first two to be converted to OpenType. I would buy them.
 Signature --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phillip M. Jones, CET |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling 616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868 Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!
mailto:pjones@kimbanet.com
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm> <http://home.kimbanet.com/~pjones/birthday/index.htm> <http://vpea.exis.net
Tim Murray - 05 Apr 2004 01:28 GMT > I like to use if I can MS Fonts for MS documents because > those are Truetype and are supposed to be identical on PC > or Mac. Character shapes may be the same, but line-wrap wise, that is not always true in Word. Word has a great dependency on the printer driver, and may reflow text as you switch from printer to printer. It will do this whether you are using TrueType, Type 1, or OpenType. In contrast, other applications, such as those from Adobe, rely on the metrics of the font and could care less about the printer driver.
Also, in Word, you will get closer equivalency between machines when both are using Type 1 + ATM then when both are using TrueHype (intentional typo).
> If a Mac and a PC download this OpenType font (whatever font > that might be). then it is supposed to look exactly the same > on both platforms. All the angles and curves are supposed to > print the same on any printer and show exactly the same on > any monitor - Only partially true, again, in that the characters will look the same but Word might rewrap. I've heard, however, that the issue will be lessened in upcoming releases.
> except for the differences monitor size (appear > smaller on a 15" monitor than a 18" monitor. Not always true; depends on the application. Some apps, like FrameMaker, can be configured to show 100% size at true 100% size, and thus a 12-point type on monitor X is the same as on monitor Y, if both are configured properly.
Tim Murray - 05 Apr 2004 01:46 GMT > I'd like to see Arial and Benguiat to be the first two to be > converted to OpenType Arial already is available in OpenType (you may have it and don't know it -- version 2.76 is OpenType), but it's based on TrueType. Benguait is available from Adobe in Type 1-based OpenType.
Phillip M. Jones, CE.T. - 05 Apr 2004 20:03 GMT >>I'd like to see Arial and Benguiat to be the first two to be >>converted to OpenType > > Arial already is available in OpenType (you may have it and don't know it -- > version 2.76 is OpenType), but it's based on TrueType. Benguait is available > from Adobe in Type 1-based OpenType. where can you get them. the latest version I have of Arial is v2.60 I know my version of Benguiat is old I purchased direct from adobe several years ago.
 Signature --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phillip M. Jones, CET |MEMBER:VPEA (LIFE) ETA-I, NESDA,ISCET, Sterling 616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868 Martinsville Va 24112-1809 |pjones@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!
mailto:pjones@kimbanet.com
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm> <http://home.kimbanet.com/~pjones/birthday/index.htm> <http://vpea.exis.net
Tim Murray - 06 Apr 2004 01:12 GMT > where can you get them. the latest version I have of Arial is v2.60 I don't know. I maintain a library of fonts outside of the control of Windows. When I get a new MS product CD and install it, I examine the common fonts, and as their versions increase, I grab the newest version and move it to my library. It may have come on the Service Pack 4 CD.
Tim Murray - 01 Apr 2004 02:51 GMT > apparently Times New Roman is slightly larger than the > "Times" font on the Mac Times and Times New Roman, while having some different character shapes, are metrically equivalent, at least within the same platform. However, Word is quite dependent on the printer driver -- change from printer A to B on the same computer and you may find your line endings change.
Apple's standard Times (or Times NR, I forget) that shipped for years was garbage. They mixed TrueType and Type 1 in the same suitcase, and then failed to ship an outline file to boot. But you could procure Type 1 Times from Adobe on Windows and perhaps get a decent match.
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