 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussionsAccessExcelInfoPathOutlookPowerPointPublisherWordDirectoryUser Groups Related Topics Outlook ExpressInternet ExplorerWindowsMS Server ProductsMore Topics ... |
MS Office Forum / Word / Long Documents / August 2005Advice about Master documents
Hi (using Word 2002 in XP). I am writing a book that has many chapters. It is a complex book, so I'm writing a little in one chapter and a little in another at various times, adding ideas as they come along. At present each chapter is in a separate file, but that has created a great many separate files and I am looking for a way to coordinate them. I therefore thought of the Master document as a tool to do this. I used to use the Master document when I was writing in WordPerfect 5.1 and it worked very well for me. But I heard that master documents have problems and a great risk of corruption in Word. Is that true? What kind of problems occur with Master documents. Can they be avoided? Any suggestions as to how to maintain a "big picture" of all the chapters in this manuscript? I could of course put them all in one huge file with the heading chapters creating a master list in the TOC - and I'm considering doing that - but the idea of putting all the eggs in one basket that might get corrupted somehow bothers me. Am I wrong to worry about that? This manuscript has a lot of illustrations (if that makes a difference in the responses) and I use frames to position them within the document. Thanks for any suggestions and ideas.  SignatureJeff Stevens Email address deliberately false to avoid spam jeff@stevens.com 1. Yes, Master/Subs in Word still sucks. 2. Don't worry about corruption of your one document. Instead, why don't you turn on creating a backup file under Tools-->Options, Save tab? 3. How big is your document? When I was writing my book, I used the document map feature to move around 'cause inevitably, I kept inserting new pieces of info that belonged here and there. ******************* ~Anne Troy www.OfficeArticles.com www.MyExpertsOnline.com > Hi (using Word 2002 in XP). > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Thanks for any suggestions and ideas. Thanks for replying Anne. > 1. Yes, Master/Subs in Word still sucks. > 2. Don't worry about corruption of your one document. Instead, why don't > you > turn on creating a backup file under Tools-->Options, Save tab? I have that, but my impression is that will avoid losing unsaved data, but not file corruption. > 3. How big is your document? When I was writing my book, I used the > document > map feature to move around 'cause inevitably, I kept inserting new pieces > of > info that belonged here and there. Size will be about 400 book text pages, but with a lot of images in addition. I have to learn about the document map feature. Did not know about it. Thanks. SignatureJeff Stevens Email address deliberately false to avoid spam jeff@stevens.com > 1. Yes, Master/Subs in Word still sucks. > 2. Don't worry about corruption of your one document. Instead, why don't [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >> >> Thanks for any suggestions and ideas. See here, for one: Creating a Table of Contents Spanning Multiple Documents http://pubs.logicalexpressions.com/Pub0009/LPMArticle.asp?ID=148 IncludeText Fields might be an option, though this is a simplistic intro to them: http://daiya.mvps.org/includetext.htm Steve Hudson [Word Heretic] on how to make Master Documents work safely: http://www.techwr-l.com/techwhirl/magazine/technical/wordhomepage.html More on why MDs are unreliable: Why Master Documents corrupt: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/General/WhyMasterDocsCorrupt.htm How to recover a Master Document: http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/General/RecoverMasterDocs.htm You are not wrong to worry about putting all eggs in one basket, but the answer to that is backup frequently--turn on the Make BackUp option as Anne said, but also backup frequently yourself. I am not sure what difference frames may make to any of these options. Theoretically, none, I think. > Hi (using Word 2002 in XP). > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Thanks for any suggestions and ideas. SignatureDaiya Mitchell, MVP Mac/Word Word FAQ: http://www.word.mvps.org/ MacWord Tips: <http://www.word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/> What's an MVP? A volunteer! Read the FAQ: http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/ Hi Daiya. Thanks for all the urls. I'll look them up. I already do frequent backups, so my concern is not about losing the entire file, but opening the file and finding the images corrupted, replaced by red Xs or something like that. That would be very hard to recover from. Thanks. SignatureJeff Stevens Email address deliberately false to avoid spam jeff@stevens.com > See here, for one: > Creating a Table of Contents Spanning Multiple Documents [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >> >> Thanks for any suggestions and ideas. Make sure that your backups are separate and don't overwrite each other. A file may corrupt before you realize that it is. SignatureCharles Kenyon Word New User FAQ & Web Directory: http://addbalance.com/word Intermediate User's Guide to Microsoft Word (supplemented version of Microsoft's Legal Users' Guide) http://addbalance.com/usersguide See also the MVP FAQ: http://www.mvps.org/word which is awesome! --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- This message is posted to a newsgroup. Please post replies and questions to the newsgroup so that others can learn from my ignorance and your wisdom. > Hi Daiya. > [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] >>> >>> Thanks for any suggestions and ideas. > Make sure that your backups are separate and don't overwrite each other. A > file may corrupt before you realize that it is. Now I am paranoid all over again <grin>. SignatureJeff Stevens Email address deliberately false to avoid spam jeff@stevens.com > Make sure that your backups are separate and don't overwrite each other. A > file may corrupt before you realize that it is. [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] >>>> >>>> Thanks for any suggestions and ideas. Since we're talking about master doc feature here, I'd like to ask: We have a need to create a large doc collaboratively, with many authors working on sub doc portions concurrently. We need someone to routinely be able to put the entire doc together, print it, and otherwise review it. We are being (the IT shop) asked repeatedly about master doc feature, and are passing on the advice we read here that it's not safe, but we have little to offer in its place except copy and paste (our formatting requirements are rigid). Any suggestions on how we should best accomplish this? Thanks. Chip p.s. We did have a short try with includetext fields, and found on ocasions they too caused problems with improper formatting of the final doc. Use a common template and you can include parts that are in separate documents using IncludeText fields. Look at Steve Hudson's methods for using Master Documents and decide whether you would be able to enforce following them. SignatureCharles Kenyon Word New User FAQ & Web Directory: http://addbalance.com/word Intermediate User's Guide to Microsoft Word (supplemented version of Microsoft's Legal Users' Guide) http://addbalance.com/usersguide See also the MVP FAQ: http://www.mvps.org/word which is awesome! --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- This message is posted to a newsgroup. Please post replies and questions to the newsgroup so that others can learn from my ignorance and your wisdom. > Since we're talking about master doc feature here, I'd like to ask: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > they > too caused problems with improper formatting of the final doc. Thanks for the suggestion. I will go read the material you referenced. What we found yesterday, when we tried IncludeText, was that it immediately had formatting issues when you did an "update field" in the "master". In particular, it translated invisible style separators into visible paragraph marks, and so, changed the line break and pagination where they were used in the subdoc. Are there known issues with IncludeText like this? Are style separators so unusual that if we eliminated their use, we could count on IncludeText otherwise working ok? Thanks. > Use a common template and you can include parts that are in separate > documents using IncludeText fields. Look at Steve Hudson's methods for using [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > they > > too caused problems with improper formatting of the final doc. Interesting.... IncludeText fields have a little weirdness with filepaths, and fields within fields: http://daiya.mvps.org/includetext.htm#FilePaths http://daiya.mvps.org/includetext.htm#FieldsWithinFields But the MVPs just helped me put together this article, and no one mentioned your problem, so thanks much, that is a biggie for long documents. What version of Word was that? Alternatively, here is Charles' other recommendation: Steve Hudson [Word Heretic] on how to make Master Documents work safely: http://www.techwr-l.com/techwhirl/magazine/technical/wordhomepage.html DM > Thanks for the suggestion. I will go read the material you referenced. > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >>> they >>> too caused problems with improper formatting of the final doc. SignatureDaiya Mitchell, MVP Mac/Word Word FAQ: http://www.word.mvps.org/ MacWord Tips: <http://www.word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/> What's an MVP? A volunteer! Read the FAQ: http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/ We're using Word XP. We reviewed Steve's article, but sense we have such a large number of relatively inexperienced word processors (usually engineers, accountants, analysts, etc.), who wish to use this, we think it unlikely that all rules could be followed all the time. Thanks for the reports on the other IncludeText issues. Chip > Interesting.... > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > >>> they > >>> too caused problems with improper formatting of the final doc. I haven't used style separators so hadn't bumped into this. Version of Word? Consistent for all users? SignatureCharles Kenyon Word New User FAQ & Web Directory: http://addbalance.com/word Intermediate User's Guide to Microsoft Word (supplemented version of Microsoft's Legal Users' Guide) http://addbalance.com/usersguide See also the MVP FAQ: http://www.mvps.org/word which is awesome! --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- This message is posted to a newsgroup. Please post replies and questions to the newsgroup so that others can learn from my ignorance and your wisdom. > Thanks for the suggestion. I will go read the material you referenced. > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] >> > they >> > too caused problems with improper formatting of the final doc. Word version is 2002; can't say about consistancy as we are just now trying out IncludeText fields and are in a bit of a panic here. The first attempt/use looks ok, it's only the update of the field that shows up the problem. We have found a similar issue with style separators if text has its format cleared (before applying new styles). We have a macro that does this, then copies and pastes the text, then applies new formatting in the new document. Somewhere along the way, the style separators become separate paragraph marks. :( I suspect the operation which clears the formatting. Chip > I haven't used style separators so hadn't bumped into this. > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > >> > they > >> > too caused problems with improper formatting of the final doc. I should clarify this by saying the problem I reported here only occurs if the \* MergeFormat switch is used in the IncludeText field. If not, then we only have the problems Daiya mentions in her article to deal with! :( Chip > Thanks for the suggestion. I will go read the material you referenced. > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > > they > > > too caused problems with improper formatting of the final doc. The MergeFormat switch should be removed in most cases. SignatureCharles Kenyon Word New User FAQ & Web Directory: http://addbalance.com/word Intermediate User's Guide to Microsoft Word (supplemented version of Microsoft's Legal Users' Guide) http://addbalance.com/usersguide See also the MVP FAQ: http://www.mvps.org/word which is awesome! --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- This message is posted to a newsgroup. Please post replies and questions to the newsgroup so that others can learn from my ignorance and your wisdom. >I should clarify this by saying the problem I reported here only occurs if > the \* MergeFormat switch is used in the IncludeText field. If not, then [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >> > > they >> > > too caused problems with improper formatting of the final doc. Thanks. It was accidentally added as we chose the "insert field" menu choice the first time we experimented with this idea, and that adds it by default (where-as Insert File and selecting "as link" does not). Now, if we put all the files in the same dir, and add a little macro support, the only problem I am worried about, and need to study further, is Daiya's report of "fields within fields", which we do use (placing a field result inside of a TC field). We may go back to using this for our multi-person, multi-file project instead of Jonathan's RD approach, as this does provide us with a single large document at the end (once all IncludeText fields have been unlinked), and that ends up being important to us. Thanks for help from all. Chip > The MergeFormat switch should be removed in most cases. > >I should clarify this by saying the problem I reported here only occurs if [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > >> > > they > >> > > too caused problems with improper formatting of the final doc. > Thanks. It was accidentally added as we chose the "insert field" menu > choice the first time we experimented with this idea, and that adds it by > default (where-as Insert File and selecting "as link" does not). Thanks very much for that tip--I'll add that note. That's very valuable to know, and glad you chased down the cause of the style separator problem. (PS--I'm going to be off the groups and probably unable to follow the rest of this thread, but if you find anything else you think ought to be in the article, or any errors, feel free to drop me a note offgroup to ensure it doesn't get lost--the article was the collected comments of many but not produced in the midst of extensive testing as you seem to be doing. I assume you can see my address to un-spam-proof it. Otherwise, I'll check the thread via google in a few weeks anyhow, assuming I remember.) Daiya Hi Chip, You might want to take a look at this article Creating a Table of Contents Spanning Multiple Documents http://pubs.logicalexpressions.com/Pub0009/LPMArticle.asp?ID=148 SignatureRegards Jonathan West - Word MVP www.intelligentdocuments.co.uk Please reply to the newsgroup Keep your VBA code safe, sign the ClassicVB petition www.classicvb.org > Since we're talking about master doc feature here, I'd like to ask: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > they > too caused problems with improper formatting of the final doc. Thanks ... hmmm ... I like this idea the best so far. I'll suggest it, along with the necessary changes to our internal policies and procedures to allow for it (for instance, we currently have a requirement that the finished product be a single document). Thanks again, Chip > Hi Chip, > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > they > > too caused problems with improper formatting of the final doc. Hi Chip: Word MVP Steve Hudson has a delightful article here that explains how to use Master Documents: http://www.techwr-l.com/techwhirl/magazine/technical/masterdocs.doc The article is long and technically intense. That's because it needs to be. If you follow Steve's advice exactly, you will successfully use master documents. If you give the article to your users, and expect them to use it, you will spend the rest of your career fixing their result :-) Using master documents in a production environment is nearly as much work as "not" using them :-) To avoid this, I use separate component documents and an "assembler" macro. How's your VBA? If it's functional, I can send you a template with macros that automatically assembles source documents into a single document for printing and review. I used it to compile 500 source documents into a 2,500-page RFP. You would need to customise it to your purposes. Email me direct if you want it. Cheers On 5/8/05 12:13 AM, in article Os95w6PmFHA.3312@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl, "Chip Orange" <Chip.Orange@psc.state.fl.us> wrote: > Thanks ... hmmm ... I like this idea the best so far. I'll suggest it, > along with the necessary changes to our internal policies and procedures to [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >>> they >>> too caused problems with improper formatting of the final doc. SignaturePlease reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email me unless I ask you to. John McGhie <john@mcghie.name> Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410 It's my understanding that the Red X is often a display problem but doesn't necessarily mean the images have been corrupted, but that's just some small experience, and on the Mac. Like Anne says, don't do any photo editing in Word, in which case you should have the original image files somewhere, no? Making corrupted images an exceedingly painful and tedious situation, but not irrecoverable. Re Doc Map, here's some more links: How it works: http://shaunakelly.com/word/documentmap/index.html A couple caveats that *should* be irrelevant to you, using Word 2002: http://daiya.mvps.org/docmap.htm Another good way to work with long documents, especially if you decide to rearrange text, is Outline View: http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Formatting/UsingOLView.htm (though rearranging across IncludeText fields could get ugly) > Hi Daiya. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Thanks. SignatureDaiya Mitchell, MVP Mac/Word Word FAQ: http://www.word.mvps.org/ MacWord Tips: <http://www.word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/> What's an MVP? A volunteer! Read the FAQ: http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/ The original images are all elsewhere and I never do anything with them in Word except reduce them to fit (not cropping, but using the corner anchors) and removing the default borders from the frames. The reason I insert them in Word now is because I have reference links (not sure of the exact term for it) in the text to their figure numbers. Good to know about the red X. SignatureJeff Stevens Email address deliberately false to avoid spam jeff@stevens.com > It's my understanding that the Red X is often a display problem but > doesn't [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >> >> Thanks. Resizing also bloats your files, I believe. SignatureCharles Kenyon Word New User FAQ & Web Directory: http://addbalance.com/word Intermediate User's Guide to Microsoft Word (supplemented version of Microsoft's Legal Users' Guide) http://addbalance.com/usersguide See also the MVP FAQ: http://www.mvps.org/word which is awesome! --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- This message is posted to a newsgroup. Please post replies and questions to the newsgroup so that others can learn from my ignorance and your wisdom. > The original images are all elsewhere and I never do anything with them in > Word except reduce them to fit (not cropping, but using the corner [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >>> >>> Thanks. Hello Jeff > I am writing a book that has many chapters. It is a complex book, so I'm > writing a little in one chapter and a little in another at various times, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > true? What kind of problems occur with Master documents. Can they be > avoided? To add to what others have said already: A big question for me is whether the individual files you have right now are based on the same template, and whether the formatting used is consistent over these files. These things need sorting out if not only done so; and before that, even _thinking_ about a Master Document might corrupt your work! :-) > Any suggestions as to how to maintain a "big picture" of all the chapters in > this manuscript? I could of course put them all in one huge file with the > heading chapters creating a master list in the TOC - and I'm considering > doing that - but the idea of putting all the eggs in one basket that might > get corrupted somehow bothers me. Am I wrong to worry about that? You could easily test the big file scenario: Bring all the chapters into one file via INCLUDETEXT fields. Save the file with active fields, then (in a copy), unlink all the fields. You have one big file now. Fiddle around with it a bit, how many pages are there? How big (filesize)? > This manuscript has a lot of illustrations (if that makes a difference in > the responses) and I use frames to position them within the document. Like Daiya, I don't see much problem with frames per se. The question I'd raise here is what you use them for: Are you running body text around your frames/illustrations? What kind of illustrations are we talking about, btw, and how were they inserted into Word (presuming they were not made in Word itself)? Greetinx Robert Signature/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | MS \ / | MVP X Against HTML | for / \ in e-mail & news | Word Hi Robert > To add to what others have said already: A big question for me is whether > the individual files you have right now are based on the same template, > and whether the formatting used is consistent over these files. These > things need sorting out if not only done so; and before that, even > _thinking_ about a Master Document might corrupt your work! :-) Yes they all were and will be written using the same template and styles. > You could easily test the big file scenario: Bring all the chapters into > one file via INCLUDETEXT fields. Save the file with active fields, then > (in a copy), unlink all the fields. You have one big file now. Fiddle > around with it a bit, how many pages are there? How big (filesize)? There will be about 400 pages (book pages) plus a great many images. Never heard of INCLUDETEXT fields. I'll have to read up on it. > Like Daiya, I don't see much problem with frames per se. The question I'd > raise here is what you use them for: Are you running body text around your > frames/illustrations? What kind of illustrations are we talking about, > btw, and how were they inserted into Word (presuming they were not made in > Word itself)? I only recently discovered frames which is why I asked the question since they add complexity, and yes I am running text around the frames and their captions. The illustrations are mostly photographs. I insert them into Word using Insert/picture/from file. Is that the best way to do it? Thanks. SignatureJeff Stevens Email address deliberately false to avoid spam jeff@stevens.com > Hello Jeff > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > Greetinx > Robert Hi, Jeff. Some things you can do to AVOID corruption: 1. If you use drawing objects, please, please, please do it in PowerPoint and group them, then copy and paste as a picture into your Word doc. If you lose the image, it's in PPT. Also, corruption OFTEN occurs with documents that contain multiple drawn objects with multiple parts. 2. Make sure your pictures are compressed and resized BEFORE you insert them into Word. A good photo shouldn't need to be more than 100KB. You can use www.Irfanview.com as a free graphic compression software. 3. Do not crop or resize pictures in Word. When you crop, you're literally carrying a copy of the original size AND the cropped size! Double-dipping! 4. Get yourself a GMail account (I've got invites if you need one). Then, email a copy of the document to yourself when you're done working on it. Heck...I bet somebody could get you a macro that'll do it for you automatically when you close your document. :) 5. Never save it to a lesser version--not an important doc like this. It tends to bloat the doc. 6. Don't be afraid of a document that's 10MB, though even a 400+ Word 2003 document of ONLY text isn't quite 2MB. 7. Unless your "desktop publishing" it now, don't put the pictures in until you're done writing. ******************* ~Anne Troy www.OfficeArticles.com www.MyExpertsOnline.com > Hi Robert > [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > Greetinx > > Robert Great tips. Thanks. > 1. If you use drawing objects, please, please, please do it in PowerPoint > and group them, then copy and paste as a picture into your Word doc. I actually work on the images in Paint Shop Pro and then transfer them. Do you mention PSP just as an example or because it has a particular intrinsic value? They are not drawings but mostly scanned images or photos. > 5. Never save it to a lesser version--not an important doc like this. It > tends to bloat the doc. What does this mean? > 7. Unless your "desktop publishing" it now, don't put the pictures in > until > you're done writing. Unfortunately that does not work well for me. Thank you. SignatureJeff Stevens Email address deliberately false to avoid spam jeff@stevens.com > Hi, Jeff. Some things you can do to AVOID corruption: > 1. If you use drawing objects, please, please, please do it in PowerPoint [quoted text clipped - 122 lines] >> > Greetinx >> > Robert Hee hee, Jeff... 1. I mentioned PPT just because not everybody has graphics apps. If you're using PSP, it's fine. You're exporting to JPG first, though, right? 5. There's options to save to, for instance, Word 97. When you do this, Word can actually save BOTH versions, which bloats the file size. You're probably not doing it. 7. I hear you. Me either. I am actually in the processing of writing an eBook for DTP in Word. Good luck, okay? ******************* ~Anne Troy www.OfficeArticles.com www.MyExpertsOnline.com > Great tips. Thanks. > [quoted text clipped - 144 lines] > >> > Greetinx > >> > Robert Thank you very much Anne. Its all very helpful. SignatureJeff Stevens Email address deliberately false to avoid spam jeff@stevens.com > Hee hee, Jeff... > [quoted text clipped - 202 lines] >> >> > Greetinx >> >> > Robert Hi Jeff > I only recently discovered frames which is why I asked the question since > they add complexity, and yes I am running text around the frames and their > captions. The illustrations are mostly photographs. I insert them into Word > using Insert/picture/from file. Is that the best way to do it? OK, if you want text flowing around, you need to use either a table cell or a frame. A textbox won't do, beceause Word has a habit of not "finding" the captions in there (which makes your table of figures rather useless! :-)). A frame might not lend as many options concerning "flow-around", but it has another benefit that tables don't offer: you can make a frame part of a style, say, the Caption style. Type your caption text, apply the style (which frames it and positions the frame in the predefined way), then, with your cursor at the start of the frame, insert (from file) the picture. Greetinx Robert Signature/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | MS \ / | MVP X Against HTML | for / \ in e-mail & news | Word Thank you. SignatureJeff Stevens Email address deliberately false to avoid spam jeff@stevens.com > Hi Jeff > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Greetinx > Robert |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.