[q] References list

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Victor Kazmirenko - 18 Jan 2005 13:24 GMT

Hello!

I'm trying to find good solution for references list management. I need
to refer some papers in my document. References list have to be in the
end of the document. I want it to maintain auto numeration and order of
citation. The first solution I've tried was just cross-reference on the
paragraph number. I was adding items in the list and then making
cross-references to their paragraph numbers. This approach has
disadvantage. If I wand to reorder some items in the list, numbering of
other references will be broken. Secondly I've tried to use bookmarks,
but there is a problem with naming of them adequately to their real
meaning. I'm pretty sure that many people have experience in papers and
thesis preparation. I would appreciate experience sharing.

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Best regards,
Victor Kazmirenko

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Daiya Mitchell - 18 Jan 2005 14:32 GMT

Actually, using a numbered list (numbers supplied by Word) at the end and
cross-references to the numbered list *is* a solution. However, while
footnotes update automatically when you insert another one, when you insert
cross-references, you have to hit F9 to Update Fields to get the
cross-references to change.

However, if you want the citations at the end to be in order of citation
(not alphabetical), then go ahead and use endnotes. The second time a
source is used, use a cross-reference to the endnote. Again, you will have
to hit F9 for those cross-references to update. The relevant Help topic for
this is "refer to the same footnote or endnote more than once". Endnotes
will probably be easier to maintain than a numbered list.

> Hello!
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> meaning. I'm pretty sure that many people have experience in papers and
> thesis preparation. I would appreciate experience sharing.

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Daiya Mitchell, MVP Mac/Word
Word FAQ: http://www.word.mvps.org/
MacWord Tips: <http://www.word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/>
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Victor Kazmirenko - 18 Jan 2005 16:16 GMT

    Thank you for spending time and replying. Actually, I've used both
numbered list and endnotes. Neither satisfies me. With endnotes I have
no option to set custom number format, say:

[1] Reference 1
[2] Reference 2

    Numbered list is inconvenient in handling movements of item. I don't
refuse to press Ctrl-A, F9 as many times, as needed. But the most
disadvantage is that there no easy way to preserve consistency of the
list and references while rearranging the list. Imagine, you are working
on you thesis, made a list of hundred something references, and then
decided to move some part say item number 26 to number 20 as text
organization changed.

    My thought about bookmarks was because they are really locked on
pointees, which could be arranged in a list with any formatting. But
here I see a difficulty in naming bookmarks. Place title of the paper as
bookmark tag?

    Anyway, thank you very mach for paying attention.

> Actually, using a numbered list (numbers supplied by Word) at the end and
> cross-references to the numbered list *is* a solution. However, while
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>> meaning. I'm pretty sure that many people have experience in papers and
>> thesis preparation. I would appreciate experience sharing.

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Best regards,
Victor Kazmirenko

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Daiya Mitchell - 18 Jan 2005 18:14 GMT

Hi Victor,

> With endnotes I have
> no option to set custom number format, say:
>
> [1] Reference 1
> [2] Reference 2

See here, should give you some techniques to help solve that.
I want the numbers in my footnotes not to be superscripted, and I want the
numbers to be followed by a dot and a tab
http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/MacrosVBA/UnSuperscptFnotes.htm

> Numbered list is inconvenient in handling movements of item. I don't
> refuse to press Ctrl-A, F9 as many times, as needed. But the most
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> decided to move some part say item number 26 to number 20 as text
> organization changed.

If Word is numbering the list for you, then it should change the number
automatically and update the cross-references, I believe. I don't use
numbered lists myself, but isn't that the whole point, that you can insert
and remove items and Word will sort out the numbering? I just did a 30-sec
test and that's what happens, and then F9 updates the cross-reference number
so that it still matches the original item.

Or are you manually typing each number for the list of sources?

I'm also fairly sure that cross-references are just a way of setting up
bookmarks that Word can update for you, it uses the same technology. But
not totally positive on that, too lazy to check, as I think cross-refs uses
hidden bookmarks.

> My thought about bookmarks was because they are really locked on
> pointees, which could be arranged in a list with any formatting. But
> here I see a difficulty in naming bookmarks. Place title of the paper as
> bookmark tag?

Author and Date, I should think. Like an in-text citation--Mitchell 2004,
Mitchell 2005a and Mitchell 2005b, if more than one pub for the same year.
Forget which style that is--maybe MLA?

A question occurs to me--how do people using this style direct their readers
to the exact page?

DM

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Suzanne S. Barnhill - 18 Jan 2005 19:00 GMT

Your assumptions are correct, Daiya. Both the list numbering and the
cross-references do update. Cross-references do use hidden bookmarks (but
they're not so hidden that you can't see them if you check the box for "Show
hidden bookmarks" in the Bookmark dialog.

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Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
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> Hi Victor,
> > With endnotes I have
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> DM

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Daiya Mitchell - 18 Jan 2005 20:28 GMT

Thanks Suzanne.

So, question--for Victor to get the type of numbered list that he needs (one
where Word applies the numbers, he doesn't type them), is it safe to simply
type out all the sources, then select the list, and apply numbering via the
Format | Bullets & Numbering pane?

I can't remember if simple numbering is subject to the same difficulties as
outline numbering

Daiya

> Your assumptions are correct, Daiya. Both the list numbering and the
> cross-references do update. Cross-references do use hidden bookmarks (but
> they're not so hidden that you can't see them if you check the box for "Show
> hidden bookmarks" in the Bookmark dialog.

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Suzanne S. Barnhill - 18 Jan 2005 21:34 GMT

Although it could be done this way, I wouldn't advise it. What he wants is a
numbered style. It could still be simple numbering, but it will be more
reliable if firmly linked to a style, and you can't link numbering levels to
a style unless you use outline numbering. So I would define a style for the
references, include the numbering in the style, and then apply the style to
the references. Note that the numbering can be formatted to include the
brackets he wants, the desired hanging indent, etc.

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> Thanks Suzanne.
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> > they're not so hidden that you can't see them if you check the box for "Show
> > hidden bookmarks" in the Bookmark dialog.

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Victor Kazmirenko - 19 Jan 2005 11:22 GMT

Hi!

> I'm also fairly sure that cross-references are just a way of setting up
> bookmarks that Word can update for you, it uses the same technology. But
> not totally positive on that, too lazy to check, as I think cross-refs uses
> hidden bookmarks.

Thank you for advise - I've checked it myself and found that
cross-reference really sets hidden bookmark. So my question reduces to
how properly manage numbered list every item of which is bookmarked? How
properly insert new item in numbered list? How properly change their
order (say, move some item up or down)?
I saw if I press Return immediately before text of list item, bookmark
will span both old and new number... Suggestion are very appreciated.

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Best regards,
Victor Kazmirenko

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Daiya Mitchell - 19 Jan 2005 13:32 GMT

> So my question reduces to
> how properly manage numbered list every item of which is bookmarked? How
> properly insert new item in numbered list? How properly change their
> order (say, move some item up or down)?
> I saw if I press Return immediately before text of list item, bookmark
> will span both old and new number... Suggestion are very appreciated.

Did you see Suzanne's posts? Creating your own bookmarks is the hard way to
go about this.

Use a numbered list for your list of sources. Use cross-references to the
numbered list. Do not type the numbers for the list of sources, but let
Word apply the numbers. Then Word will keep the numbers straight when you
insert and remove items, and F9 will update the cross-references.

Suzanne's second post and the one of mine that she replied to give you two
ways to apply the numbers to your list of sources so that this works.

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Daiya Mitchell, MVP Mac/Word
Word FAQ: http://www.word.mvps.org/
MacWord Tips: <http://www.word.mvps.org/MacWordNew/>
What's an MVP? A volunteer! Read the FAQ: http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/

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Victor Kazmirenko - 19 Jan 2005 14:37 GMT

Hi, again!

>> how properly manage numbered list every item of which is bookmarked? How
>> properly insert new item in numbered list? How properly change their
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Did you see Suzanne's posts? Creating your own bookmarks is the hard way to
> go about this.

Sure, I saw. And I agree that having Word's automation it is dumb idea
to do it manually.

> Use a numbered list for your list of sources. Use cross-references to the
> numbered list. Do not type the numbers for the list of sources, but let
> Word apply the numbers.

Yes, that is what I'm currently using. But in my previous message I've
told that sometimes behaviour of the list is not convenient to use.
Simple example. Set a list of references, make a cross-reference to at
least first item. Imagine, you have to add one more item on the first
position. Place cursor on the very beginning of the list, press Return.
I see that bookmark, corresponding to ex-first item will span both item
#1 and #2. So, referencing will be broken. Previously I was using empty
#1 as stub, which was removed just before final edition, but that is
just workarround... Again, I'm not sure, what happens every time I have
to rearrange items in list... I hope on some advise how to be sure in
the result. Any way, thank you very much for helping me.

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Best regards,
Victor Kazmirenko

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Suzanne S. Barnhill - 19 Jan 2005 14:59 GMT

This is a problem with bookmarks. The secret is to press Enter at the end of
the preceding item instead of the beginning of the numbered item. For
example:

[1] First reference.

[2] Second reference.

If you want to insert a new reference between [1] and [2], press Enter at
the end of [1] instead of the beginning of [2].

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> Hi, again!
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> to rearrange items in list... I hope on some advise how to be sure in
> the result. Any way, thank you very much for helping me.

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