MS Office Forum / Word / Numbering / September 2005
Style containing outline numbering - outline number does not appea
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Caroline - 12 Sep 2005 03:17 GMT Hi folks,
I use Word 2000 in an office that uses predefined styles for outline numbering. This was all fine and dandy (except for the usual Word 2000 numbering issues) until I struck the following problem:
As far as I can reconstruct, this problem occurs when you paste text containing a particular style into a document that does not have that style. Then if you use Organizer to transfer the style into the document (after the paste) the style appears without any outlining. Sometimes it has the correct indents, sometimes not. No matter how many times you try to transfer the style, it just won't bring across the outlining. I have found this problem twice, with two different documents and different styles, but as far as I can tell both times there was a paste from another document, and then the user discovered the style was missing and tried to copy it across.
The only fix I have found for this problem is to use a different style altogether (not always possible) or to dump the document and start again.
Any help would be appreciated. We have a lot of old documents and we can't update them all with the correct styles, so I know I'm going to run across this little number over and over again.
Cheers, Caroline
Margaret Aldis - 13 Sep 2005 15:47 GMT Hi Caroline
Word 2000 is really pretty buggy in this area, so I'm not sure you are going to find a simple way around it. There are a few things you could check that might help, and a way of setting up the template so that you can get the styles via an update, though probably not using the Organizer. I'm dredging memory here but:
In the pasted content, make sure you are getting fully matched style and numbering. You might find that using Ctrl-Q to reset to style works, but if the style itself is coming across without numbering but the pasted text has the numbering as direct formatting you may be able to update the style by redefining to match the selection (should be offered in Word 2000 when you reapply the style from the dropdown, I think.)
I'm not sure the Organizer ever works for numbered styles in Word 2000, but just in case try doing the copy "Three times for luck" while the dialog is open. (In Word XP and 2003 that realigns the styles and list templates, but so much changed under the surface it may not work earlier.)
The full workaround is to use a macro to set up the numbered styles, avoiding the use of the List Gallery. In Word 97 and Word 2000 that seems to firmly cement the list template and the linked styles together, so you can update the style from template (though not via the Organizer) - and even if all else fails, you can run the macro to set up the numbered styles, which might be the simplest solution for your old documents. There is example code and a long discussion at
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.word.numbering/browse_frm/thread /eafbb7e19416f0d1/7aa4a36edee08fd0?tvc=1&q=macro+%22list+template%22+named&hl=en #7aa4a36edee08fd0
or here
http://www.word.mvps.org/FAQs/Numbering/ListRestartFromStyle.htm
I also found an old post of mine where I listed some problems that may be the same as yours: http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.word.numbering/browse_frm/thread /3812849fe7bc5ed/d80bb0e2d4ee05e1
Hope this is some help
 Signature Margaret Aldis - Microsoft Word MVP Syntagma partnership site: http://www.syntagma.co.uk Word MVP FAQ site: http://www.word.mvps.org
> Hi folks, > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Cheers, > Caroline Caroline - 14 Sep 2005 08:02 GMT Hi Margaret,
Thanks very much.
I will have to investigate the macros further - it certainly sounds like it would save me a lot of time with the old documents.
The 'copy three times' in Organizer I have found to work when the document contains the correct styles, but they have become broken (happened to me today, level 1 of a style lost it's outline numbering, and was able to be fixed via Organizer). But Organizer seems to be pretty well useless when it comes to the old documents with the problem I mentioned in my first post.
I'll follow up on the macros and see how that goes.
Cheers, Caroline.
> Hi Caroline > [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > Cheers, > > Caroline Charles Kenyon - 14 Sep 2005 19:31 GMT The macro I posted in another response in this thread worked in Word 97 and Word 2000 with numbered outline styles.
 Signature Charles Kenyon
Word New User FAQ & Web Directory: http://addbalance.com/word
Intermediate User's Guide to Microsoft Word (supplemented version of Microsoft's Legal Users' Guide) http://addbalance.com/usersguide
See also the MVP FAQ: http://www.mvps.org/word which is awesome! --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- This message is posted to a newsgroup. Please post replies and questions to the newsgroup so that others can learn from my ignorance and your wisdom.
> Hi Caroline > [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] >> Cheers, >> Caroline Chuck Henrich - 14 Sep 2005 14:13 GMT The key thing about taming outline paragraph numbering is understanding that it relies on list templates which are linked to styles but are not actually part of style definitions.
List templates are defined separately from styles. You define LTs using the Customize Outline Numbered List dialog or through code.
List templates have levels (1-9) which correspond to the number levels you see when you define the numbering for a set of styles. Word's numbering dialog allows you to create a named list template that is associated with a style (the "ListNum field list name" field in the Customize Outline Numbered List dialog) but unfortunately that dialog doesn't allow you to link individual styles with a list template's specific levels - the only way to do that is through code (the ".LinkedStyle" property of the list level). IMHO this is a basic design flaw in Word's numbering feature which can and should be fixed, something I've done myself (for more information visit my website).
If you want to copy outline numbered styles between documents and have them retain their outline numbering, you first must link a named list template to your style and also link the style to the appropriate list level. Once you've done that Organizer will *usually* copy the styles and their numbering correctly. Unfortunately *usually* isn't always (I've run into situations in 2003 where it doesn't although it does in 2000). I've created a utility that does that which is free for personal use.
I'm not sure where the "Organizer copy 3 times" idea came from but it's never worked for me. That's not surprising because if a style isn't linked to a list level the list template then Word has no way of identifying which list level should be copied over. In any case there's nothing magical about the number 3 - copying over and over hoping that the numbers will copy over with the styles is just as much a toss of the dice at 3 times as at 30.
It all sounds pretty complicated but really it's just tedious. You might want to take a look at the following for an example of how to put the concept into practice: http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/en-us/default.aspx?dg=microsoft. public.word.numbering&mid=f43fdcc2-85e5-4857-ab8e-34de40dd0bb4&sloc=en-us
HTH
 Signature Chuck Henrich www.ProductivityApps.com
> Hi folks, > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Cheers, > Caroline Chuck Henrich - 14 Sep 2005 19:06 GMT Correction - you CAN link individual styles to specific list levels in a named list template through the Customize Outline Numbered List dialog in the "Link level to style" field. My apologies.
 Signature Chuck Henrich www.ProductivityApps.com
> The key thing about taming outline paragraph numbering is understanding that > it relies on list templates which are linked to styles but are not actually [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > Cheers, > > Caroline Charles Kenyon - 14 Sep 2005 19:30 GMT Hi Chuck,
So far as I know, I came up with the copy three times rule a while back. It is important when copying linked or cascading styles. Copying once will lose all links, between styles. Copying three times will retain all links, between styles. List templates are something else entirely.
I do use the Organizer copy method with outline numbering styles and it works for me. I just tried it again to make sure, using a template source that was not created on this computer. The numbering formatting is retained. The original numbering was set using the procedures outlined in Shauna Kelly's articles back around 2001. It seems to be stable but I haven't tried to destruction test it, just used it in practicing law.
The macro for transfering the styles is below.
Sub PleadingStyleTransfer() ' ' PleadingStyleTransfer Macro ' Macro written 14 November 2001 by Charles Kyle Kenyon ' On Error GoTo NoDocument 'In case called when no document is open. Dim sThisTemplate As String Dim sTargetDoc As String Dim i As Integer Dim iCount As Integer Dim rResponse As Variant 'vbMsgBoxResult in Word 2000 or later sThisTemplate = ThisDocument.FullName sTargetDoc = ActiveDocument.FullName 'generates error if no document open rResponse = MsgBox(Prompt:="This command redefines your Body Text Style and" _ & vbCrLf & "Heading Styles 1-9. Are you sure you want to do this?" _ & vbCrLf & vbCrLf & "If you are not sure, answer 'No' and make a backup of your document." _ & vbCrLf & "Then run the command to copy the styles again.", _ Title:="Are you sure you want to redefine your styles?", _ Buttons:=vbYesNo + vbExclamation) If rResponse = vbNo Then Exit Sub On Error Resume Next ' Copy Body Text and Pleading Styles to Active Document For i = 1 To 3 ' copy styles three times StatusBar = "Copying Styles - Round " & i & " of 3" With Application .OrganizerCopy Source:=sThisTemplate, _ Destination:=sTargetDoc, Name:="Body Text,bt,bt1", Object:= _ wdOrganizerObjectStyles StatusBar = i & "/3: Body Text" For iCount = 1 To 9 .OrganizerCopy Source:=sThisTemplate, _ Destination:=sTargetDoc, Name:= _ "Heading " & iCount & ",h" & iCount & ",Pleading " & iCount _ & ",p" & iCount, Object:= _ wdOrganizerObjectStyles StatusBar = i & "/3: Pleading " & iCount & " copied" Next iCount End With Next i StatusBar = "All styles copied." ' Change to Pleading 1 style? rResponse = MsgBox(Prompt:="Change to Pleading 1 style and go into Outline view?", _ Buttons:=vbYesNo, Title:="Pleading Styles Imported - start writing?") If rResponse = vbYes Then Selection.Style = ActiveDocument.Styles("Heading 1,h1,Pleading 1,p1") ActiveWindow.ActivePane.View.Type = wdMasterView Else 'not now - then reminder MsgBox Prompt:="The style to start your pleading is Pleading 1 or p1." _ & vbCrLf & "It is probably easiest to work in Outline view." End If Exit Sub NoDocument: MsgBox Prompt:="Sorry, this command is only available when you have a document open." _ & vbCrLf & "It should be used after you have your caption set up.", _ Title:="No document open!", Buttons:=vbExclamation End Sub
 Signature Charles Kenyon
Word New User FAQ & Web Directory: http://addbalance.com/word
Intermediate User's Guide to Microsoft Word (supplemented version of Microsoft's Legal Users' Guide) http://addbalance.com/usersguide
See also the MVP FAQ: http://www.mvps.org/word which is awesome! --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- This message is posted to a newsgroup. Please post replies and questions to the newsgroup so that others can learn from my ignorance and your wisdom.
> The key thing about taming outline paragraph numbering is understanding > that [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] >> Cheers, >> Caroline Chuck Henrich - 15 Sep 2005 11:49 GMT Hi Charles
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. The problem with relying on Organizer to copy outline numbering is that it isn't reliable - sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. The Organizer x 3 method has never worked for me and there isn't any logical reason why it should - if Organizer was going to work for me it worked after the first try and if it didn't work the first time it didn't work however many times I tried it unless I got lucky and Organizer just happened to copy over the correct list template out of all the unnamed list templates floating around in the source document. (BTW - list templates aren't something else from outline numbered styles, they *are* the outline numbering linked to the styles. Without list templates you have no numbering.)
I found that if I named my list templates then everything settled down and I didn't have to cross my fingers, close my eyes and pray. (I'm kidding - I didn't really close my eyes ;) ) Naming list templates is the only way to reliably link styles with a specific list template - otherwise Word often creates a new list template every time you make a change to any of the list levels involved. (Pre-XP versions of Word could end up with documents containing 1500+ list templates. Word 2002/XP seemed to cut down on list template bloat drastically and 2003 seems even better.)
However I have found that using .OrganizerCopy (ie copying styles using code) transfers list templates along with styles a lot more reliably than using the dialog (Tools>Templates and Add-ins>Organizer).
I know I'm suggesting something different than what has been standard teaching but in this case I think standard teaching needs updating.
 Signature Chuck Henrich www.ProductivityApps.com
> Hi Chuck, > [quoted text clipped - 169 lines] > >> Cheers, > >> Caroline Charles Kenyon - 15 Sep 2005 15:39 GMT The copy three times method was developed for cascading styles, not numbered styles. Any time you have one style based on another, based on another, copying once using the Organizer does not maintain the links. This is documented at http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q113/1/06.asp.
 Signature Charles Kenyon
Word New User FAQ & Web Directory: http://addbalance.com/word
Intermediate User's Guide to Microsoft Word (supplemented version of Microsoft's Legal Users' Guide) http://addbalance.com/usersguide
See also the MVP FAQ: http://www.mvps.org/word which is awesome! --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- This message is posted to a newsgroup. Please post replies and questions to the newsgroup so that others can learn from my ignorance and your wisdom.
> Hi Charles > [quoted text clipped - 226 lines] >> >> Cheers, >> >> Caroline Chuck Henrich - 15 Sep 2005 16:23 GMT Ah. An earlier post in this thread suggested that the OP use the Organizer x 3 method "for luck" in trying to copy numbered lists and I was responding to that. Thanks for the confirmation that Organizer x 3 method will not reliably copy numbered styles, as I said.
 Signature Chuck Henrich www.ProductivityApps.com
> The copy three times method was developed for cascading styles, not numbered > styles. Any time you have one style based on another, based on another, [quoted text clipped - 231 lines] > >> >> Cheers, > >> >> Caroline Margaret Aldis - 15 Sep 2005 16:24 GMT Hi Chuck
I think we have to agree that we all have different experiences with numbering :-)
Several people have reported that "copy 3 times" worked for them, which is why I usually suggest giving it a try, along with a bunch of other stuff. Of course it could be that it works when the root problem is a cascading one rather than an LT linking one, but I think it is possible that there is an ordering problem (similar to the cascading one) when Word copies a bunch of numbered styles.
My own experience has been to have had much better luck with Update from template than with the Organizer. I went early down a route of setting up numbering via macro (using the LT collection and avoiding List Galleries) which happily completely solved the musical chairs problem for Update from template. This was back in Word 97 though, and there were big changes under the surface in Word 2002 so several things that wouldn't work from the UI then do work now (and maybe vice versa).
Since I still use a macro method (with named LT) to set up numbering in my own templates, and hardly ever touch the Organizer for styles, my later experiences are not typical. However, I'm now of the opinion that neither using the macro nor naming the list template is essential, and in fact LT naming in 2002/2003 might sometimes cause problems of its own. I've managed in these later versions occasionally to achieve a "zombie" list template name, which is not found on an existence test, but causes an "in use" error if the set up macro then attempts to use it. Word plays some strange games with the names, especially on pasting (see stuff Klaus Linke has posted on this) and updating from template. For instance, if you try to update one of my documents where both the target (the document) and source (the attached template) contain list templates with the same name the name gets deleted. Then a second update puts it back (except strangely if you run the same update sequence from a global template, when it stays missing). The thing is, though, that whether or not the name is copied, the correct LT, with full style linking *is* updated correctly, and without increasing the LT count - hence my belief that the name is not central to the linking issues.
In another post you asked for some historical links that have disappeared from the MVP site - they are:
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.word.numbering/browse_frm/thread /118758b170e0f952/8d8c0575e5585d2c (ListNumbering Street, revisited)
and the original Nightmare on ListNumbering Street http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.word.numbering/browse_frm/thread /eafbb7e19416f0d1/7aa4a36edee08fd0
there's also some stuff on LT naming here: http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.word.numbering/browse_frm/thread /4ba8b5b63e92d45a/20683690d0d61450
I have to say the longer I've spent on this, the less sure I am there can be any "standard teaching" or full understanding and controlling what goes on <sigh>.
 Signature Margaret Aldis - Microsoft Word MVP Syntagma partnership site: http://www.syntagma.co.uk Word MVP FAQ site: http://www.word.mvps.org
> Hi Charles > [quoted text clipped - 226 lines] >> >> Cheers, >> >> Caroline Chuck Henrich - 15 Sep 2005 16:50 GMT Hi Margaret
Thanks for the details on your experiences in 2002/2003. I've also noticed strange things - like Word assigning named list templates to Heading styles, the names being variations on other list template names in the document, for no particular reason. However I (thankfully) haven't had any problems with naming list templates or updating them.
Also thanks for the links, I'll check them out.
I've searched the MS site but haven't seen any clarity from their side on this whole subject. Are you aware of any published material from MS that explains how they've implemented list templates and why they (mis)behave they way they do?
 Signature Chuck Henrich www.ProductivityApps.com
> Hi Chuck > [quoted text clipped - 261 lines] > >> >> style, it just won't bring across the outlining. > >> >> I have found this problem twice, with two different documents and Margaret Aldis - 15 Sep 2005 17:41 GMT > Are you aware of any published material from MS that > explains how they've implemented list templates and why they (mis)behave > they > way they do? No.
 Signature Margaret Aldis - Microsoft Word MVP Syntagma partnership site: http://www.syntagma.co.uk Word MVP FAQ site: http://www.word.mvps.org
Charles Kenyon - 15 Sep 2005 19:09 GMT Not from MS, but...
See: How to create numbered headings or outline numbering in your Word document http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/numbering/OutlineNumbering.html. (For bullets see http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/bullets/controlbullets.html, the subject is related.)
This is based on ...
Word's Numbering Explained http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Numbering/WordsNumberingExplained.htm
Additional information you may find useful or need is at:
How to Create a Template, Part II http://www.mvps.org/word/FAQs/Customization/CreateATemplatePart2.htm
Legal Numbering http://www.addbalance.com/usersguide/numbering.htm
Seven Laws of Outline Numbering http://www.microsystems.com/fra_sevenlawsofoutlinenumbering.htm
The following are some discussions on the Microsoft newsgroups on numbering: Nightmare on ListNumbering Street <URL: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&th=9e790fa7ed2886b3,18&ic=1> The Joy of Lists <URL: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&th=811287ebce8fc203,15&ic=1> Relinking ListTemplates <URL: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&th=2350746054c838e,12&ic=1> Outline numbering: restart doesn't restart <URL: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&ic=1&th=2168093ed1c9eaed,6&se ekm=muq2hs47vabsq381ngrm7fdmqj4s2e4ab2@4ax.com#p> Format Doesn't "Hold" <URL: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&ic=1&th=3a351382011420bf,5&se ekm=RXz39CAcCC$4Iwap@syntagma.demon.co.uk#p> (above list compiled by Dave Rado, Word MVP)
ListNumbering Street Revisited <URL: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&safe=off&th=57df77857e4993ce>
 Signature Charles Kenyon
Word New User FAQ & Web Directory: http://addbalance.com/word
Intermediate User's Guide to Microsoft Word (supplemented version of Microsoft's Legal Users' Guide) http://addbalance.com/usersguide
See also the MVP FAQ: http://www.mvps.org/word which is awesome! --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- This message is posted to a newsgroup. Please post replies and questions to the newsgroup so that others can learn from my ignorance and your wisdom.
> Hi Margaret > [quoted text clipped - 337 lines] >> >> >> style, it just won't bring across the outlining. >> >> >> I have found this problem twice, with two different documents and Caroline - 27 Sep 2005 06:27 GMT Hi guys,
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one confused by Word's numbering :-)
But this has been helpful and I have discovered that the styles (which were created long before my time) do *not* have a named list template.
Considering how religiously these styles are used, I'm surprised there haven't been more problems - especially with List Template bloat.
But at least I have something to try now. Maybe with named list templates and perhaps a macro to replace the styles I'll be able to tame those outdated documents.
Cheers, Caroline.
> Not from MS, but... > [quoted text clipped - 261 lines] > >> >> or > >> >> p1." _
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