MS Office Forum / Word / Numbering / March 2007
Is it advisable to use several outline numbered lists together?
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Anne - 02 Mar 2007 13:26 GMT I've read every article I can including McGhie's "Word's numbering explained" but while I can find myriad things I should NOT do, I'm not certain what I SHOULD do to properly set up all of the numbering needed in my lengthy document (a technical manual).
Specifically I've done the following:
- based all formatting on styles - tucked all styles into a template - broken any links to "normal" - used the built-in styles for my Headings, modifying the numbering for all levels from within a Heading 1 paragraph, resetting the list templates first - taken care to check if my "based on" settings have been lost through using the Organizer - remembered to un-check "automatically update document styles"
My document headings are stable so far, but I have need of setting up a variety of formats within all three levels of my document and I'm losing a grasp on what numbering I ought to use and what styles I should base those formats on. I will try to approximate what I need to accomplish in the following:
1. My first level heading is to be numbered as shown here. Under this level I will need a "plain" flush left body text I will also need 3 other body texts which are identical to the "plain" b.t. in all ways but shading and a border (these are to highlight three different types of safety warnings) I will also need bulleted text I will also need numbered lists And I will need the three shading/bordering variations for the bulleted text
1.1 My second level heading is to be numbered as shown here. Under this level I will need the same variations as above, but all text is on this level is to be indented 1 cm from the left margin.
1.1.1 My third (and, thankfully, final) level is to be numbered as shown here. Under this level I will need the same variations as in levels 1 and 2, but again, all text on this level is to be indented differently from the previous two levels.
I hope this is adequately clear?
I understand I will need to set up a number of styles to accomplish this formatting. My heading styles (3) and my body text styles (12) are already set up and appear to be correct as they remain stable. I have set-up my List Bullet styles (also 12) several times because they have broken, although right now they appear to have stablized. I now wish to set up the numbered lists for each level, but I've become badly boggled ...
Can anyone offer a beacon of hope?!
Thanks.
Suzanne S. Barnhill - 02 Mar 2007 14:41 GMT See http://www.ShaunaKelly.com/word/bullets/controlbullets.html for wisdom on bullets. If you need bulleted lists with a variety of bullets and/or indents, it's economical to set them up as a single outline list (you could use the built in List Bullet series). Since there's not really an issue with restarting numbering in bulleted lists, you shouldn't have much trouble with these, and making them part of a single outline gives you the power to use Alt+Shift+Left/Right Arrow to promote/demote (at least to some extent). I'm wondering if you really need 12 different styles for these. If this is really true, then I guess you'll have to create a four-level outline list for each of your three heading levels, though this seems like overkill.
I'd suggest the same for the numbered lists (using the List Number series), though if you have each level set to restart after a higher level, you may often find yourself resorting to the Restart Numbering and Continue Previous Numbering commands on the shortcut menu. I find that (in Word 2003 at least) these commands, once invoked, are pretty stable; occasionally if I add paragraphs I'll have to "remind" Word that the list restarts or continues, but this is easily enough done. Same comment wrt number of levels--do you really need 12 different combinations of indent and numbering?
What you've already done wrt heading and body text styles sounds correct and sufficient.
 Signature Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit.
> I've read every article I can including McGhie's "Word's numbering explained" > but while I can find myriad things I should NOT do, I'm not certain what I [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Thanks. Anne - 02 Mar 2007 17:36 GMT Hi Suzanne,
Thank you for your speedy answer.
I have read Shauna's article on bullets several times so straightforward bulleted lists don't give me trouble -- it's this particular combination of numbering and formatting that's so mind-boggling, at least for me.
Do I "need" 12 different styles? Good question. I'm obligated to duplicate the formatting of an original document I have only in hard copy and that document has this many paragraph variations, so it seems to me that I do. There would be quite a few less if I could accomplish some of the formatting with an overlaid character style, but to the best of my knowledge, the specific formatting I cannot add in anything other than a paragraph style (borders/shading) so that's how I've ended up in this soup.
Let me make sure I understand what you're saying: it's perfectly kosher to have several outline-numbered lists intertwined in the same document? In my case, then, I would have an outline-numbered list for the 3 heading levels, another one for all 3 levels of the bulleted text, and a third for all 3 levels of the numbered text?
In that case I would initially have 9 associated styles, correct? The 3 heading styles, the 3 bullet styles, and the 3 number styles (within the latter two categories having mostly indentation differences between them)? If that's what you're suggesting, I'm with you so far.
When it comes to the variations on the bullet and number styles (again, the addition of a colored border and text shading) I would need further sets of similar styles wouldn't I? For example, for a level 2 block of bulleted text with red shading, I'd have to have a "List Bullet 2 Red" style in addition to the "List Bullet 2" style, yes?
If that's correct, I guess my only remaining question is regarding the "based on" properties for the additional sets of styles for the variations. If "List Bullet 2 red" is based on "List Bullet 2" can I 'share' the same list template between all of these various and sundry bullet styles?
Forgive the confusion -- hope it's a piece of cake at your level of expertise!
Thanks again.
> See http://www.ShaunaKelly.com/word/bullets/controlbullets.html for wisdom > on bullets. If you need bulleted lists with a variety of bullets and/or [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > > > > Thanks. Suzanne S. Barnhill - 02 Mar 2007 18:09 GMT Okay, I'm beginning to get the picture now. I hadn't quite seen that the bulleted/numbered styles in combination with borders were causing this issue. That being the case, I think I would create one list template for each set of associated styles: that is, a set of bulleted styles and a set of numbered styles (each with varying indents) for each heading level/border type. But I am *not* the expert on numbering; perhaps Shauna will weigh in on this.
 Signature Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit.
> Hi Suzanne, > [quoted text clipped - 123 lines] > > > > > > Thanks. Anne - 02 Mar 2007 18:49 GMT Sorry I failed to make myself clear initially, Suzanne. Difficult to do without showing examples, and even more difficult when my head's spinning in confusion!
It would be great if Shauna (or someone else, of course) could confirm that last question. Otherwise, will set up some experiments.
Once again, thank you for your help.
> Okay, I'm beginning to get the picture now. I hadn't quite seen that the > bulleted/numbered styles in combination with borders were causing this [quoted text clipped - 173 lines] > > > > > > > > Thanks. Suzanne S. Barnhill - 03 Mar 2007 04:16 GMT I think you were probably quite clear; I just wasn't reading carefully enough--jumping to conclusions, as usual!
 Signature Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit.
> Sorry I failed to make myself clear initially, Suzanne. Difficult to do > without showing examples, and even more difficult when my head's spinning in [quoted text clipped - 182 lines] > > > > > > > > > > Thanks. Anne - 05 Mar 2007 16:39 GMT Suzanne (and whomever else might be tuning in!) --
I just wanted to post a follow-up to this since Shauna has not weighed in (is that something I could have specifically requested since she's an acknowledged expert on this forum?) so I went ahead and set up some trials from which I learned quite a bit so thought I'd share.
I was a bit boggled about the "based on" properties when setting up variations on styles which were part of an outline-numbered scheme, but it turned out to be quite straightforward. Using simple names just to illustrate, I set up a 3-level scheme with associated styles: Style A, Style B, and Style C (setting up the outline-numbering scheme within Style A which was my level 1 style).
Then I needed to set up variations for those paragraphs (specifically, the addition of a red paragraph border) so I set up three new styles -- Style A Red, Style B Red, and Style C Red -- and based each on their more-basic "sisters," (i.e. Style A Red on Style A; Style B Red on Style B; and Style C Red on Style C). I added the border to each and made no adjustments to the numbering schemes whatsoever.
The result was just what was hoped: I could then intertwine these paragraphs as needed and never lost the numbering sequence. Perfect!
There was, however, a complication when I set up the numbered lists within these outline-numbered paragraphs.
Since I wanted each of these lists to start numbering from 1 in all instances, I tried setting up my three levels with "normal" (non-outline) numbering, and I also tried setting them up with a single outline-numbered scheme.
The numbering created with the outlined-numbered list was stable, however, level 1 could not be restarted automatically as there's no "restart numbering after level X" box to activate. So in order to get the numbering in level 1 paragraphs as I needed it, once the text was in place I had to right-click within the level 1 numbered paragraphs and choose "restart numbering" manually.
The numbering created with the "normal" numbering would not re-start automatically on any level so ALL required the "restart numbering" manual push. I also started to get some rather bizarre responses with the "restart numbering" command within the level 1 numbered paragraphs, namely, even though my cursor was in a level 1 paragraph when "restart numbering" was pressed, the numbering restarted in the NEXT paragraph (a level 2 paragraph). As if that wasn't bad enough, it also reverted the style of the next paragraph from a variation on a numbered style to the "plain" version of the same style!
The conclusion is that your advice to set up three outline-numbered schemes (for the 3-level headings, for the 3-level bulleted paragraphs, and for the 3-level numbered lists) was spot on: once these were set up (including once several sets of variations to the paragraph styles were made as well) the numbering was flawless with the relatively minor irritation of having to re-start the level one numbered lists manually. I've taken these styles back and forth from my office computer to my home computer several times and everything's still intact and functioning as hoped, so just maybe, FINALLY I've mastered complex numbering?!
Sorry for the verbal diarrhea. Thanks again for listening and for your help Suzanne.
> I think you were probably quite clear; I just wasn't reading carefully > enough--jumping to conclusions, as usual! Suzanne S. Barnhill - 05 Mar 2007 18:04 GMT Although it generally works pretty well to restart numbering manually, another method is to set up a dummy "Level 0" style to be your Level 1 and bump each of the others down one level. The Level 0 style is not numbered (and may be Hidden or 1 point or just a Body Text style you use frequently) and is used solely as the upper-level style to restart numbering in the real Level 1 (now Level 2). See http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/Numbering/ListRestartMethods.htm for more.
I think you're very brave and obviously very determined, and I'm glad you've got it working as far as you have.
 Signature Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit.
> Suzanne (and whomever else might be tuning in!) -- > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > I think you were probably quite clear; I just wasn't reading carefully > > enough--jumping to conclusions, as usual! Anne - 05 Mar 2007 18:36 GMT Something very vague started to stir in my head regarding what you're describing below, but at that point with almost every word starting to sound like Chinese, I just couldn't get the idea to gel. Now that you've spelled it out, I'll give it a try tomorrow. After all, even though I was putting a brave face on it, my solution with the slightly manual bit felt somewhat like an "almost, but no banana" solution.
As for that article, how DID I miss it?! Very timely indeed. Then again, maybe learning the trial and error way has its benefits, or so I hope!
Again, thanks for your attentiveness to my woes!
> Although it generally works pretty well to restart numbering manually, > another method is to set up a dummy "Level 0" style to be your Level 1 and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I think you're very brave and obviously very determined, and I'm glad you've > got it working as far as you have. Suzanne S. Barnhill - 05 Mar 2007 21:12 GMT I'm just so admiring. If I had to deal with a mess of this magnitude, I would be explaining to the client/boss why it couldn't possibly be done and suggesting he figure out a way to simplify the formatting. <g>
 Signature Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit.
> Something very vague started to stir in my head regarding what you're > describing below, but at that point with almost every word starting to sound [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > I think you're very brave and obviously very determined, and I'm glad you've > > got it working as far as you have. Anne - 06 Mar 2007 12:50 GMT Well, I'm the boss/client in this case and my obligations are self-imposed, so no-body to run to to make excuses ;-)
Besides, as long as I'm pretty sure it CAN be done and it seems desirable to do it, I try to figure it out, even if I have to take the not-very-efficient method of trial and error. I'm just so grateful I found this mother-lode of information!
(And by the way? This "mess of such magnitude" certainly seemed overwhelmingly so mid-way, but, wouldn't you know, by the time I've reached the end, it all seems to fall quite logically into place?! Guess that's just the way it goes with learning ...)
> I'm just so admiring. If I had to deal with a mess of this magnitude, I > would be explaining to the client/boss why it couldn't possibly be done and > suggesting he figure out a way to simplify the formatting. <g> Suzanne S. Barnhill - 06 Mar 2007 14:15 GMT You sound a lot like me; I'm a lot more likely to persevere in trying to do something when it's myself I'm trying to please. It is indeed satisfying to take on a formatting nightmare of that magnitude and conquer it. I start with the premise that there must be a way to do it. And of course if you're just trying to achieve a given effect and not trying to create a template that will be unbreakable by clueless users, that helps a lot.
 Signature Suzanne S. Barnhill Microsoft MVP (Word) Words into Type Fairhope, Alabama USA Word MVP FAQ site: http://word.mvps.org Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so all may benefit.
> Well, I'm the boss/client in this case and my obligations are self-imposed, > so no-body to run to to make excuses ;-) [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > would be explaining to the client/boss why it couldn't possibly be done and > > suggesting he figure out a way to simplify the formatting. <g>
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