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MS Office Forum / Word / Printing and Fonts / November 2006

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Clear, plain, outlined/shadowed font?

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Terry Pinnell - 07 Nov 2006 08:37 GMT
Just found this group (Suzanne Barnhill over in
microsoft.public.word.drawing.graphics where I first posted
recommended it to me). So I hope my quest will now soon be over!

I'm looking for a clean outlined or shadowed font please. I don't mind
if I have to pay a modest price for it, although I'm a bit staggered
by the prices of the few I've been pointed to so far (typically £23
UKP, $43 USD). I've installed about 30 free fonts, but still haven't
found what I'm after.

I'm into making family DVDs, and need this for captioning.

This one, Imprint MT Shadow, is about the best I've tried so far. But
as you see from my example, it's very hard to see the third placement,
'On fussy background'.
http://www.terrypin.dial.pipex.com/Images/FontRequired.jpg

Most of the 30 I mentioned are a bit too 'fancy', informal or quirky
in some way or other. A handful looked OK at first, but their
visibility proved unacceptable. Another strange flaw was that at sizes
of 18 or smaller several of them (like Academy Engraved, Highlight LET
Plain:1.0, etc) had large gaps between some characters.

Is there an outlined/shadowed font out there that's 'plain' and modern
please? Like say Arial, Verdana, Tahoma, etc?

Signature

Terry, West Sussex, UK

Character - 07 Nov 2006 21:31 GMT
> Just found this group (Suzanne Barnhill over in
> microsoft.public.word.drawing.graphics where I first posted
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Is there an outlined/shadowed font out there that's 'plain' and modern
> please? Like say Arial, Verdana, Tahoma, etc?

The problem you're having is only partially due to your use of Imprint
MT Shadow, which by the way is neither an outline font nor a shadow
font but more commonly described as engraved or open. Either way,
you're right - the glyphs are much too complex for this application.

You haven't said whether your output will be used in print media.
computer screen, or a movie theater. It makes a difference.

Type styles that rely on the significance of both the dark and light
portions are not suitable for graphic backgrounds, and this is even
more pronounced on screen than in print because of the much coarser
resolution.  In your example, I didn't even SEE the text over the
houses until I re-read your message mentioning the "third placement"
and "fussy background".  The discrimination between the text and the
backround is lost because of the color similarities and is made even
worse by the text size chosen relative to the size of the elements in
the image. If they're that close they WILL get confused and lost.In
practice, you want to use dark lettering on light backgrounds, light
lettering on dark backgrounds, and lettering that's large enough to
create a size contrast with the background pattern.

Closed captions on TV are always placed on a consistent background to
avoid just such problems. GOOD movie subtitles either do the same or
vary the text color intensity with the background. There's nothing
worse than seeing black subtitles for a foreign-language film for a
crucial scene taking place inside an unlit coal mine at midnight.

There are plenty of plainer fonts available, both pay and free. With
free fonts there's the very real danger of getting what you paid for.

A small drop-shadow or thin outline can help maintain contrast;
mis-used, though, they can also introduce jarring visual elements.

I'd suggest finding some everyday magazines and looking at how the
advertisers present their messages. A good graphic design book could
also help.

 - Character
Terry Pinnell - 08 Nov 2006 08:26 GMT
>> Just found this group (Suzanne Barnhill over in
>> microsoft.public.word.drawing.graphics where I first posted
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>MT Shadow, which by the way is neither an outline font nor a shadow
>font but more commonly described as engraved or open.

Thanks, appreciate your interest and response.

OK, odd choice of name then, isn't it?

>Either way,
>you're right - the glyphs are much too complex for this application.

Not sure what a 'glyph' is, but I'll take your word for that ;-)

>You haven't said whether your output will be used in print media.
>computer screen, or a movie theater. It makes a difference.

As mentioned, family DVD. So it will typically be seen on a TV.

>Type styles that rely on the significance of both the dark and light
>portions are not suitable for graphic backgrounds, and this is even
>more pronounced on screen than in print because of the much coarser
>resolution.  In your example, I didn't even SEE the text over the
>houses until I re-read your message mentioning the "third placement"
>and "fussy background".

Deliberate intention to reinforce my point!

>The discrimination between the text and the
>backround is lost because of the color similarities and is made even
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>lettering on dark backgrounds, and lettering that's large enough to
>create a size contrast with the background pattern.

Understood. I'm beginning to see maybe I'm being too ambitious, and
that maybe *no* font will do what I originally set out to achieve.

One self-imposed obstacle is that I don't like text to be intrusively
large on most slides or clips. For a 'major' caption I'll use size 18
(as when specifying a date on the *first* of a series of slides all
with that date) and for normal captions size 14.

>Closed captions on TV are always placed on a consistent background to
>avoid just such problems. GOOD movie subtitles either do the same or
>vary the text color intensity with the background. There's nothing
>worse than seeing black subtitles for a foreign-language film for a
>crucial scene taking place inside an unlit coal mine at midnight.

Agreed - gets me very cross, as my wife will testify. (But not so
often as the near inaudibility of some movie dialogues these days,
drowned by background music and special effects...)

>There are plenty of plainer fonts available, both pay and free. With
>free fonts there's the very real danger of getting what you paid for.

Yep, plenty of evidence of that amongst the 30 or so I've installed
since starting this quest.

>A small drop-shadow or thin outline can help maintain contrast;
>mis-used, though, they can also introduce jarring visual elements.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>  - Character

Many thanks.

BTW, I can sometimes break up a single line caption into 2 or 3
shorter lines if that helps me to place it on a suitably 'plain'
section of background. But just occasionally even that doesn't cut the
mustard.

Although I'll continue looking for an improvement on Imprint MT
Shadow, the conclusion I'm coming to squares with your reply. I need
to find an easy technique for adding a solid contrasting rectangle
behind my captions. I hesitate though, because *most* of the text
captions on my finished DVDs so far are OK. It's just the odd few with
really challenging backgrounds that prompted this quest. And I want
uniformity.

Looking at some of those fonts I now have installed, they *look* as if
they'll be OK, when seen displayed neatly on a white background. But
at size 14 on a tough coloured background, NOT!

BTW, some are *wildly* different in apparent size. Why is that? All
these are shown at size 18, yet some are half the size of others.
http://www.terrypin.dial.pipex.com/Images/FontIssues1.jpg

And, re my earlier post, why do some (like Academy Engraved in the
extract) have intermittent large gaps between characters please? (That
issue seems confined to size 18 and lower.)

Finally, note that none of this would be necessary if the program I'm
using, MemoriesOnTV, actually did what it advertised. One of main
reasons I upgraded to its version 3 was that it claimed to allow
outlining to be applied (in any colour) to any text. And the
screenshot example it provided illustrated that. But it doesn't work.
The developers, Codejam, assure me they're still trying to fix that
bug, but on past experience I'm not optimistic. Hence this search for
a font...

Signature

Terry, West Sussex, UK

Tom Ferguson - 08 Nov 2006 15:31 GMT
A few suggestions:

Abandon the idea of using an outline font. Use a plain font like Avenir,
Univers, Futura, Lucida Sans. You want glyphs ('pictures' that are the
letters, punctuatiopn, &c) that are open and not too closely spaced.

Process your images in a graphics program before inserting in word.
Investigate the possibility of either placing the text on a blanked out
area or an area with reduced contrast. Some graphics editing programs
will alow you to select an area and adjust that defined area or, if it
does pixel editing, make changes on a pixel-by-pixel basis. With the
latter, you can set the pixels to gray, for example, and insert a text
box over that area. (MS Paint does pixel editing and allows text boxes
or frames.)

Good luck.
Tom
MSMVP
Windows Shell/User

: >> Just found this group (Suzanne Barnhill over in
: >> microsoft.public.word.drawing.graphics where I first posted
[quoted text clipped - 125 lines]
: bug, but on past experience I'm not optimistic. Hence this search for
: a font...
Terry Pinnell - 08 Nov 2006 16:03 GMT
>A few suggestions:
>
>Abandon the idea of using an outline font. Use a plain font like Avenir,
>Univers, Futura, Lucida Sans. You want glyphs ('pictures' that are the
>letters, punctuatiopn, &c) that are open and not too closely spaced.

Thanks Tom, that makes sense.

>Process your images in a graphics program before inserting in word.
>Investigate the possibility of either placing the text on a blanked out
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>box over that area. (MS Paint does pixel editing and allows text boxes
>or frames.)

Apart from the time and hassle of editing 50-100 images, and
re-editing whenever I want to change a caption, that just wouldn't
work. I pan and zoom around these slides. Permanently embedded as part
of the bitmap, the text would pan and zoom too! MemoriesOnTV places
the captions on a separate layer to avoid that, and to allow easy
editing.

Another idea that came to me last night, which I've not yet
investigated, is to first add (say) a white rectangle by using some
font that has a 'solid square character', with no gaps around the
edges. Then, I could add my caption in (say) black, in the identical
location. Do you know of a font with such a special character please?
(I did try a simple blank space - but that was treated by MoTV as
empty.)

Signature

Terry, West Sussex, UK

>: >> Just found this group (Suzanne Barnhill over in
>: >> microsoft.public.word.drawing.graphics where I first posted
[quoted text clipped - 135 lines]
>: bug, but on past experience I'm not optimistic. Hence this search for
>: a font...
Tom Ferguson - 08 Nov 2006 17:12 GMT
I'm not familiar with the MoTV program. I thought, erroneously it now
appears, you were using Word for some part of the process.

:"Add (say) a white rectangle by using some
: font that has a 'solid square character', with no gaps around the
: edges. Then, I could add my caption in (say) black, in the identical
: location", pretty much defines what a text frame is.

Not being familiar with the programmes you are using nor the programs
you have but are not using nor programmes you might be willing to
acquire and try/use, I really can't say how you might implement this
idea. Indeed, it is a promising method.

Taken literally, what you want to do is to place some text inside of a
glyph from some or other font file. Something like that is possible in a
vector editing programme such as Corel Draw. You would insert the text
and convert it to outlines; then insert other text inside the previous
square glyph that is now just another drawing object.

There are many fonts that contain box characters. Check the symbol fonts
you have. Exercise some care if viewing the font with an application
such as Character Map. It uses a box to indicate "no character defined
for this data point". Otherwise you might try to insert a box that is
not a box-if you follow.

'Do-able', perhaps but simpler to use a programme that uses frames.
However, I don't know how all this fits within the concept of using
MoTV.

Tom

MSMVP

Windows Shell/User

: >A few suggestions:
: >
[quoted text clipped - 167 lines]
: >: bug, but on past experience I'm not optimistic. Hence this search for
: >: a font...
Ron Killmer - 09 Nov 2006 19:36 GMT
T-bird Leader Terry Pinnell radioed the tower On 11/8/2006 11:03 AM:

>> A few suggestions:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> (I did try a simple blank space - but that was treated by MoTV as
> empty.)

There are some fonts that are inverted producing a White on Black look
that would be simpler that using two fonts. However the white portion may
be transparent causing the image behind to yeald a textured color to the
letters.

If you have not looked for such a font try dafont.com which has a search
tool to find what is in there font database of free and shareware fonts.

Signature

Ron K.
Don't be a fonted, it's just type casting.

 
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